Ford Escape V6 Spark Plug Eject -- Again

Maintenance/Repairs
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21

Now, the thing is, it seems to me that if the spark plug was making contact with the piston, regardless of how minimal that contact is, that I’d have ejected that spark plug within minutes of starting the car. It sure seems that way. May not be true, but seems fairly likely. I’ve had the engine to 6,000 rpm several times already; that’s a LOT of stress to put on spark plug threads, even with extremely light contact.

My biggest fear with pulling that plug is that the shop didn’t do the helicoil right, and if I can remove that plug successfully, it’ll be a big surprise. But in that case, wouldn’t I just take it back to the original mechanic (on a tow truck, of course) and tell them what happened?

If I were to pull that plug and run it for 30 seconds with the plug out, to evacuate debris (if there is any), what are the risks? The amount of fuel that goes in on each stroke seems minimal to me, but I’d probably have a fire extinguisher on hand, just to be safe. And I should do it in an open area, and stay away from the line of fire, as it were. Can I somehow disconnect that injector electrically so that no fuel goes into the cylinder when I have the plug out?

What else? How much time is enough? Should I rev it, or just let it idle?

Now, the shop that did this job thinks I should put in a wrecking yard engine and then just get rid of the car. I can get a replacement engine, with 57k miles on it, delivered, for $900. It’s a 10 hour install. Four month guarantee. Of all the options presented so far, I think that has some real appeal.

22

getting back to your post; how many miles are on this thing? what year? how many cylinders? 4 or 6?

is it worth putting ANY money into it?

it sounds like (from your description) that you don’t want to put ANY money in it, and want justification to dump it. sorry, i don’t agree. you haven’t actually removed the plug and looked? how can you make ANY rational decision/ determination without looking in the hole? (with or without a borescope!)

i would be willing to bet the problem is with the helicoil extending down too far into the cavity, possibly causing predetonation, as OK mentioned, but unless you LOOK, you will never know.

if you want a confirmation to pull the engine, and put in a JY replacement, it’s your decision; go ahead. BUT i think you are not having that big an issue.

23

Well you’re in a tough spot. Don’t count me as an expert, but as a consumer I think I would want to know what the problem is before I dumped the car. I think I would be inclined to pull the head for a look. If it is something the other guy did wrong, you’ll have the proof. Once the head is off, you can decide whether to fix or put the used engine in. If you can just pay to pull the head and go from there. I’ve never had much luck letting people repair an engine, but . . . they do do it. I don’t think you want to drive it that way and sure doesn’t sound like any carbon knock.

24

The spark plug should be removed and examined. If this problem is somehow related to a detonation issue due to a fault in the cylinder then the spark plug should show it by the discoloration pattern.
I’m also leaning towards Cappy’s opinion the problem may not be that bad and an investigation being done before assuming the worst.

25

It’s a 6, and looking around, people are getting between $9k and $11k for them. Mine would be closer to $9k without this hideous noise; 106k miles in 5 years. I think I’d have a hard time selling it with the noise.

Frankly, I’m really tired of the gas bills. It gets about 20mpg, or 25 on trips, which isn’t that bad, but you can see we drive a lot.

But we won’t get much for it with this noise. It almost seems like, as-is, $5k; fix it for $2k, it’s worth $9k. And there’s a chance that if we pull the head (the original garage and the new one recommend it), it’ll still be time for an engine. Now, if that noise is a rod bearing, Ford sells only the short-block now; we can’t pull the head and then remove the piston; we’d pull the head, enter panic mode, and then put in a wrecking yard engine.

That’s where I’d be inclined to sell it. Sure, the engine I found has 57k miles on it, but that’s no guarantee this one will go 50k miles.

The Ford Duratec engine is really hard to work on. If this was the 1990 GLI or my 1996 Maxima, well, I think those cars were less inclined to throw a plug, but easier to fix if I did.

That’s why I’m inclined to just throw in the towel and sell it for $5k. I think it’s the best-risk gamble.

But I do want to pull that plug, just to be sure.

26

Yeah, pulling a plug, and maybe pulling that pan to inspect the rod bearing seem a lot easier than pulling that head.

Like I say, I’ve read the AllData instructions for removing and replacing that head. It’s no picnic.

I’ve always favored timing-chain engines to timing-belt engines, but now I can see a reason to have a belt; makes head removal way easier.

I’ve had the valve cover off. Even that simple task wasn’t simple.

Oh, and can I rent a borescope?

27

I have seen them for rent before. Seems like a rental place here was advertising them one time along with some other stuff but I’ve no idea if they’re available in your area or not.

Why not disable the coil on that cyinder where it will not fire, crank it up, and note what happens to the noise?
The engine will run rough, the CEL will probably be triggered, but so what? It’s only for a minute and won’t hurt anything at this point.

If the noise completely disappears then this might point to something in that cylinder being the cause of the problem. If the noise subsides a lot but is still present then that COULD point to a rod bearing. This is all a bit iffy but is something to consider anyway. Hope it helps.

28

i just figured out why you aren’t keying on the (or keen to the) suggestion of LOOKING into the hole!

have you seen a helicoil? look at the package. they are inserted (once the hole is reamed and threaded) by screwing the thread insert into the hole. the center of the “coil” is snapped off once the coil has gotten down into the plug hole. the center of the coil has a portion of the thread across the middle. a special “wrench” hooks onto the cross piece in the center. this way the heli coil is screwed down into the threads. when you are finished screwing the helicoil in; you must break off this center piece. it IS possible the shop didn’t do this, or they broke it off ‘unclean’ inside.

if the coil (of the helicoil) is snapped off inside (but left too long) you would NEVER know it. but having even a 1/4 of ‘coil’ hanging down in there could be the cause of the noise. it may be as easy as cleaing up the repair, then you could save a whole bunch of $$ versus selling it. (or then you could sell it in good condition)

after re reading your post you state that the second mechanic wants to remove BOTH heads? find a third mechanic!! thats BS; the problem is on the head where the helicoil is, not the other one!

29

If the knocking problem is caused by early detonation from a foriegn object in the combustion chamber you should be able to unplug the injector on the cylinder with the helicoil and the noise shouldn’t be there. If the plug is screwed in too far and is being struck by the piston the plug should be damaged or at least the gap hammered closed which should cause a miss. I personally would have to know so I would pull the plug and look.

30

Well, I’m back, because I had to think about this some more.

The mechanic who did the work insists that the noise is in the bottom-end. I reject this partially. First, the sound isn’t random enough to be a wrist pin. I think I can eliminate that.

I cannot, however, definitively eliminate the rod bearing… To which you’re all saying, I must be nuts. I don’t blame you.

But hear me out.

Think about the normal intake-compression-ignition-exhaust cycle. With the plug out, during a “normal” compression stroke, at 2,000 rpm, the velocity of the air coming out of the cylinder has to be extreme. At that point, you have a spark plug dancing around in the tube, being pretty unpredictable. Now, on the normal power stroke, the valves will be closed, meaning that there will be a huge vacuum through the plug hole. It seems possible to me that, because this spark plug is dancing around pretty good at this point, it could land back in the hole. If the timing was just right, the vacuum inside the cylinder would be unbelievable. This car has quite a high compression ratio.

To make this work, things would have to be just right. Suppose in the 18,000 or so revolutions the car was run before it was shut off (6-8 miles at freeway speeds on the Yolo Causway, in case anyone’s interested), the above scenario happened 10 times. Wouldn’t that ruin a rod bearing cap? Is it possible I now have, say .020 play instead of the, say, .005 it’s supposed to have? Would I hear that?

To this point, I’ve rejected the idea of “rod bearing” because it just didn’t seem possible. But it could be, IF the situation I described can happen.

If this is the case, could the mechanic drop the pan and check the bearing clearance? Any Duratec experts out there know if this can be done?

The original mechanic insists the problem is in the bottom-end. The Ford dealer partially concurs, but insists the sound is from inside the cylinder. But when this engine is stone-cold, the first start is pretty clacky (and regular). It sounds sorta like a rod bearing. But once warmed up, at 3,000 rpm, you can’t hear a thing. It sounds great. I would not really expect a rod bearing to do that, unless, of course, the clearance “only” increased from .005 to .020. Would I hear .020?

This mechanic, for some reason I don’t really want to know, doesn’t want to pull the plug. This makes me really suspicious. I’m leaning towards the “head must be pulled” theory, not the rod bearing. But I wanted to put it out there: Is what I described possible?

31

Well, I’m nervous about looking in the hole because I’ve asked the mechanic to pull that plug, and he’s being pretty evaisive about it.

I think he knows he botched it, and doesn’t want to admit it. But honestly, I don’t see what the problem is. If the insert is the problem, fine, he can put in a Big-Sert. He can repair the repair job easily. Heck, I’d even pay for it.

I think he’s also afraid to pull the head because it’ll prove once and for all that he messed up. Again, that’s okay, because if he should have pulled the head in the first place, I’d be willing to pay for that (less a credit of about 3 hours, which is about how much time he spent on it).

His scaredy-cat attitude about not pulling that plug makes me paranoid. I don’t think I’m wrong to feel that way.

32

it has been my experience that when trouble shooting (blind) you start with the simplest, cheapest things to assure that they aren’t the problem. it your case that would be to ensure the helicoil:

  1. was installed correctly.

  2. is going to last and be able to have plugs changed in 30k or so.

if the heliciol was installed correctly, to the correct depth, and snapped off correctly then that issue would be removed from the equation.

from your description the first shop is not able to guaranty the job. the same shop cant even give you the warm fuzzy feeling that it was even done successfully then you must make other attempts to ensure #s 1 and 2.

if the helicoil was NOT installed correctly, the the sert could be an option (IF there is sufficient clearance inside the head, combustion chamber. BUT then this would require having the head removed anyway.)

again, this should be determined to see if the sert is even required.

someones suggestion to cut off fuel to that cylinder to see if the noise subsides would also help eliminate other questions. (if the fuel is cut off, and the plug is out, and there is NO noise, then that would tell you the plug/ helicoil IS the problem. on the other hand if the noise is still there, then you have to look at the possibility of damage to the piston, skirt, liner, or crank. if this IS the problem, the the idea of a JY replacement engine IS probably not such a bad idea.

BUT you should NOT simply JUMP to the conclusion that it is the most expensive, laborious problem before you have eliminated the easy stuff.

and i know you think the first shop should ‘give’ you the 3 hours of “helicoil time” back to trouble shoot the problem, i must say, isn’t it time to find a new shop and NOT worry about the three hours?

the first shop did a questionable job on the helicoil. the second shop wanted to pull both heads (when the problem is on one head/cylinder. now the first shop wants to go into a different direction by tearing down the engine. doesn’t this sound like a good reason to find a new shop?

33
the first shop did a questionable job on the helicoil. the second shop wanted to pull both heads (when the problem is on one head/cylinder. now the first shop wants to go into a different direction by tearing down the engine. doesn't this sound like a good reason to find a new shop?

That’s what I’ve decided to do. I do not have the know-how to install a Big-Sert, if that is, in fact, what is called for here. So I’m taking it to a different shop. Talking to the guy on the phone, I described the symptoms without referring to any advice I’ve received here, and he said it sounds like…

  1. Carbon on that spark plug probably ruined the threads when I pulled it out;

  2. 15 ft-lbs with anti-sieze was perfectly reasonable;

  3. He wants to pull the plug, use a bore scope, check the heli-coil, check for carbon buildup…

Of everything I’ve heard so far, this guy sounds very rational. And to repeat myself, I did not refer to this conversation or any other advice (other than what Mechanics 1 and 2 said; Mech 1: Pull engine; Mech 2: Pull heads). Basically, make sure the easy and obvious stuff is done first. Which is fine with me, it’s just that I know if I pulled that plug, and the helicoil was bad so the plug wasn’t going back in the hole, I’d be looking at another $50 tow. I’d rather pay $300 for an expert to do this right than to blow a weekend (and still have to find a mechanic on Monday).

I think I’ll know more tomorrow.

(I keep thinking, dang, Tom & Ray ought to be calling me so I can get on their radio show!)

34

I still disagree, strongly, that 15 ft. lbs of torque is appropriate and that even 11 is too much. As I explained earlier, with a conical seat plug and no gasket there is absolutely no give once the plug hits the seat. Any give is going to be in the threads and I assure you that 11 or 15 is quite a bit of ooomph.

Take a look at the chart here for example. (Conical seat, no washer)
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/installation.asp?nav=31300&country=US

Many people do subscribe to the theory that more is better; I don’t.

35

I also listened to the clip and it sounds like a flywheel bolt came loose.
Drop the inspection plate and see if any of them backed out.If so tighten up and use a thread locker such as Master.

36

Well, the new mechanic called today, and to my ears, I think he had good news.

No damage inside the cylinder, according to his bore-scope. The rod bearing is also fine. He backed out the plug, and as I suspected might happen, the helicoil backed out too. He has repaired that. He “de-carboned” the cylinder, and it’s still noisy. And now he’s taken off the valve cover, and the lash adjusters are “sloppy.”

He’s putting in new ones tomorrow. If that works, $321; if not, well, I guess the head has to come off.

I suspect the HLAs or the rockers (it has roller-rockers). He’s pretty sure the sound is from the intake side on #6, which is what it sounded like to me, too (using a long screwdriver as a poor-man’s stethoscope).

This mechanic is actually looking, which encourages me. Of course, my very first reaction when I first heard it was, “Hmmm, bad lifter.”

So I hope to get off light here.

37

Well, it came down to this (and this may not be the final chapter):

The new mechanic looked into the idea of pulling the head, and was shocked at the 13 hour estimate. $1,700, and there was still a good chance the problem was in the block.

Alternative idea: Put in an engine with under 50k miles, that costs $1075, and the labor to change that engine is actually LESS than the labor to remove and re-install my existing heads. Just over $2,000 for a salvage engine with under 50k miles, vs $1,700 for pulling and reinstalling the heads, with no guarantee of success.

I’ve decided that the salvaged engine is probably the preferred approach.

This has been a very good truck to this point, and I suppose I can’t really blame this failure on the truck. I do think it destroyed the head when I pulled the plug, though. Lesson learned on that one is, Don’t leave the plugs in for 100,000 miles.

Second lesson learned: I’ve been working on cars for 30+ years, and never had a spark plug ejection. That includes cars with 15,000 plug intervals, 30,000 miles, 60,000 miles and now 100,000 miles. I don’t think this was me. Could be wrong on that one, but reading the Escape forums, it seems like others are having problems with ejecting plugs from the #6 cylinder. I find it odd that this particular hole is having issues. It’s not hard to reach (it might be the easiest one to reach; it’s on the “front” of the engine).

So, yeah, can a spark plug ejection lead to head or engine replacement?

Yup.

Anyone want to buy this blown engine from me?