Ford Econoline E-350 driven in a dusty climate. Am I being ripped off?

@Triedaq; She probably was returning a little of your rent that you paid to show her appreciation for taking good care of the place.
I had a landlord that did that to me. An extra $200 because I always fixed things and never charged him. I was not going to replace a electric outlet and ask for my $1.39 for the part.

I have a guy that I borrow a car dolly from and I always go over it later at my shop to fix anything that is broke or missing. He never charges me to use it, so it’s the least I can do to, do a little free repair.
I was always taught to return things in better shape than when I borrowed it.

Yosemite

I’m on Bandago’s side on this.
The OP could have avoided a lot of this, just by returning the van after a good “Detail Job” job was done.
From the photo’s of Burning Man it looks like it would have needed one.

Because the OP left the scene, he’s lost credibility.

Yosemite

The profile shows two logins. Once for the OP, and once again the next day for another post, and that’s been it. Probably been back several times as a lurker, and saw which way the conversation headed.

Care to come back and "“clarify” your story DC10???

At least I found out what Burning Man was. I’d never heard of it before. I wonder how much else I’m missing?

Shadowfax you seem to be of the opinion that I should go to cartalk.com and listen to Shadowfax, and I should disregard the opinion of a licensed certified dealer mechanic. That’s ridiculous.



"Yes judge, they died in the accident but we can be confident that it wasn’t our fault, because Shadowfax examined the van using text descriptions in an Internet forum and he said everything was fine"



I apologize for not being a mechanic. I saw Richard Branson fixing a 747 the other day and I thought “man I really need to go to trade school and get my ASE certification so I can fix my company’s vehicles too”.



You are incorrect that we, or a mechanic, can charge “whatever we want”. There are laws that govern our behavior with regards to damages, and there are laws and established guides that govern licensed mechanic (or body shop technician) behaviors with regards to repairs. If either party engages in funny business they do so at great risk. Every now and then you see a mechanic or car rental operator going to jail.



But even more importantly there’s just being decent and honest. That decency and honesty btw also extends to the lives of the people that will be in this van for years to come.



I’m struggling to come up with a plausible motive for agreeing to uneccesary repairs. Remember we paid the bill out of our pocket. Best case scenario we break even. So why expose ourselves to a possible unnecessary loss?



To address your “bumper ding/fluid wash”: the mechanic didn’t recommend a flush because of a bumper ding, he recommended a flush because those systems vent to air, and during the rental they were exposed to several full fledged dust storms of extremely finely grained and highly corrosive dust. In his professional, licensed, certified, and manufacturer certified opinion he thought the flushes were warranted. Overly cautious? These are critical safety systems and these vehicles hold a lot of people. I think the highest level of caution is absolutely appropriate. You are welcome to start your own van rental company and apply your own safety standards as you see fit, but I will never accept anything less than the highest degree of safety for our fleet.



OP assumed responsibility for the cost of repairs when he left the road. Even if he hadn’t left the road he would be responsible for any damage to the vehicle. He would be responsible for damage even if the damage wasn’t his fault! (Such as a hit and run). That is how every rental car company works: you are responsible for any damage to the vehicle during the rental. And yes, the car rental company is the sole determiner of whether the vehicle is damaged or not (albeit with the very real legal and ethical constraints I mentioned above). For the very simple reason that it is the car rental company who has all the liability exposure if safety-related repairs are not completed and someone gets hurt or worse. If the car rental company fraudulently manufactures or lies about damage the operators can wind up in prison.



This isn’t some new fangled concept we invented out of thin air. This is long ago settled law. If you want to debate the fairness of this concept I’m sure there are some college students somewhere who will happily oblige you in a stony discussion about it all.



Could OP have hidden the damage by a thorough pressure washing? Tactically he could have, although that would be highly unethical - not just to us but to anyone riding in the van afterwards. Burning Man forums are full of posts from people who brag about hiding their use from the rental companies. They never consider the innocent people they put at risk.



Coda: OP has agreed to pay for repairs, and the check is in the mail.



And that concludes my essay on car rental. Thanks for reading everyone. It was a pleasure meeting you all.

lol. you really should stick around bandago…

you re a feisty one.

Shadowfax you seem to be of the opinion that I should go to cartalk.com and listen to Shadowfax, and I should disregard the opinion of a licensed certified dealer mechanic. That's ridiculous.

Not at all. I’m of the opinion that you should stipulate penalties for contract term violations in the rental agreement. Thus far, we haven’t seen that section. Why are you unwilling to show it to us? You could end my objections in five minutes if you could show me the rental agreement that your customers sign that says “don’t take it to Burning Man and if you do it’s going to cost you $750.”

you are responsible for any damage to the vehicle during the rental.

I agree. Show me where the transmission/power steering fluid was damaged (not just a “gee, I think somehow a tube smaller than your pinkie finger that’s surrounded by car might have gotten some dust in it at some point so you’d better flush it!”) and I’ll be right there with you in charging OP specifically for that repair. By the “it’s vented and therefore it got contaminated” notion, then the vented transmission would have to have its fluid changed every time you drove it on wet streets in the winter, because now you’re deluging it with fine saltwater mist and the fluid might be contaminated. The notion of contamination through the breather tube simply does not pass the sniff test.

If you’ll notice from the rest of my comments, I think that if your side is accurate, OP was a scumbag and should be penalized. I’d be right there with you if this were a penalty fee.

You’re right, I don’t run a rental company, but if I did, my rental agreement would have clearly spelled out penalties for contract violations, including one hell of a hefty fine for taking the thing to Burning Man were it an issue. Why doesn’t yours?

As far as the Branson comments go, I’m going to guess you’re not a multi billionaire with his own staff of mechanics, since you have to schlep your vans to the dealership every time something goes wrong. Branson hires experts that work for his company who do know about his airplanes, and he staffs more than 10 airport facilities with those experts. He does not subcontract out his expertise. Where are your experts?

I’m curious as to why you think we should have to specifically prohibit “Burning Man” by name on the contract (even though we do precisely that on our website). Isn’t it enough that we prohibit off-road use? What about all the other events that happen in the desert? Am I obligated to list each and every one of the hundreds of desert events and festivals that someone might consider going to? What if someone comes up with a new desert festival: are they off the hook if I fail to list that festival by name too?

And really? I have to fill up our contract with a bunch of specialized rules to prohibit uses that happen in only one or two locations at most one week out of the year? Come on now.
We do not stipulate specific penalties for specific actions for several reasons: 1) It would be unfair and unethical if there was no actual damage. 2) In many states (including California where we are headquartered) it is illegal to bill the customer for anything more than the actual cost of repair. For the record that is the standard we adhere to in every state we operate, regardless of whether it’s mandated by law or not. 3) On the other side a specific fine for a specific action creates an issue if the actual damages exceed the listed penalty. For instance if the renter somehow managed to get sand into the fuel lines and destroyed the engine as a result, then $750 would clearly be insufficient.

"Show me where the transmission/power steering fluid was damaged" "The notion of contamination through the breather tube simply does not pass the sniff test."
Hrmm, licensed dealer mechanic says it's a cause for concern. Internet commentator Shadowfax says not. Who should I listen to? :-)

You might find this study interesting: http://www.pceo.com/StudyinSandArticle.pdf
This was a study conducted by the UAE (who have a fair amount of sand) to determine to what extent sand damages engines, and what implications that might have for drain intervals and other preventative maintenance.
Some key findings:
“The team concluded that dust does enter the engine compartment [i.e. the air filter does not stop fine grained sand - which is what Burning Man is all about]”
“The tests conducted by Lubrizol confirm that dust ingestion increases wear, and excessive dust will likely lead to increased oil consumption, power loss and ultimately to engine failure…”

If sand can get past an air filter, I think sand getting past a breathing tube sounds plausible too. And if a mechanic I trust says it’s a good idea, I’m going to go with the mechanic. But I’m just the guy who owns the expensive asset and a ton of expense and liability if I’m wrong. Maybe I would feel differently if the only skin I had in the game was blisters from typing on my keyboard. :slight_smile:

"my rental agreement would have clearly spelled out penalties for contract violations... Why doesn't yours?"
We do have a clearly spelled out penalty: "The vehicle shall be returned to Bandago at the time and date specified on Page One of this agreement, in the same condition as when received, ordinary wear and tear expected. The Customer will be charged for any cleaning or repair costs necessary to return the vehicle to the required condition." This is boilerplate language that every car rental company has on their contract.

If you want to start your own car rental company where you list every possible kind of damage, and how much you will charge for that damage, there’s nothing stopping you. But I don’t know of any existing company doing that on any kind of scale.

Branson hires experts that work for his company who do know about his airplanes, and he staffs more than 10 airport facilities with those experts. He does not subcontract out his expertise. Where are your experts?
Wow. Way to miss the point. I don't know why I'm even responding, but what the heck I'm here now: First of all I don't recall saying I don't have any experts working for us. As one example I have a national fleet manager who oversees our maintenance expenditures. He signed off on the fluid replacement. Second of all, it's a question of efficiency: should we hire mechanics, purchase /lease real estate, install lifters, buy expensive tools and supplies, etc. in order to service a comparatively small number of vehicles in each of our 8 locaitons? When we have thousands of vehicles that might make sense. But not at our current size. Third of all, your attempted deep dive into the facts of the analogy has simply come to the wrong conclusion. Virgin America has all kinds of contractors and third party companies working on their planes. Here's a press release announcing a particularly large contract: http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/10432141/lufthansa-technik-named-as-exclusive-partner-for-virgin-america

And with that, I formally exit from this conversation. Thank you for playing.

Here is,an,incident along the same line of this thread. About 30 years ago our church rented a van to take,the youth to a youth camp about 500 miles away. My wife volunteered to help out and,drove the van. On,the dashboard, was,affixed,a,sign which read “Check oil at each gas,stop”. The minister was,driving ahead in his station wagon and checked the oil when they stopped for gas. At each stop he misread,the dipstick, and added a,quart, of,oil. The,next morning after they arrived,my wife just happened to check the,oil and found,it was overfilled. She,took the van to a service station and the mechanic drained,off two,quarts. My question is this: Had,the,engine been damaged by too much oil, would the renter be responsible for the repair? Nothing was in the contract about checking the oil and no instructions were given as to waiting a few minutes to let the oil drain back into the pan. The rental agency was Rent a Wreck.

30 years ago they didn’t have a dozen warning labels on a ladder either…

Quite frankly the more Bandago talks the more he comes off as a smug, insulting little ass. I’m starting to suspect perhaps OP’s statement is closer to the truth.

This was very informative at the beginning, now it seems to be deteriorating into a grudge match. I suggest we end this with a quote from Tom. Don’t criticize a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes, that way when you do, you will be a mile away and have his shoes.

Here is another vehicle rental situation: 45 years ago, I rented a truck from U-Haul on a return basis for a 125 mile move to the university where I did my graduate work. I got a special rate by returning the truck to the point of origin. On the front bumper was stenciled: " For Local Use Only".
As I proceeded to my destination, I noticed that I was leaving quite a trail of blue smoke. After unloading the truck, I pulled into a cut rate gas station where the attendant filled the tank and checked the oil. It was two quarts low. He added the two quarts and gave me a receipt. When I returned the truck and the gas tank was refilled, the rental agency checked the oil and it was again two quarts low. I gave the rental agency the receipt for the oil I added and the agent just grinned and said "The truck uses some oil, doesn’t it?"
Now the contract did state that I would be reimbursed for oil, but didn’t say that I had to check the oil. Would I have been liable had I not added oil and the truck thrown a rod?

Shadowfax,
Where have I been “smug”, or “insulting”? I’ll confess to having employed a bit of sarcasm to illustrate a couple points in response to your criticisms (such as labeling me “pathetic” for not being a mechanic). Given your own willingness to employ harsh language I thought you could handle a little sarcasm and tough language in response. I apologize if I was wrong about that.
I have not called you names (such as a “little ass”), questioned your motives, or accused you of engaging in fraudulent, unethical, and even illegal behavior. I also haven’t told you how to do your job, or run your business.
I’ve been here in good faith, and have responded with honest, and factual answers to the best of my ability. If you are unpersauded, well then I guess that’s where we’ll have to leave it.

Triedaq,
No rental company I am familiar with, including ours, would charge for breakdowns or maintenance due to normal wear and tear. If our clients pay for repairs during the rental, we reimburse them. In order to be charged for a mechanical problem there would have to be clear and unequivocal evidence of some kind of misuse or contract violation that directly led to that mechanical problem.

Keith,
Well said. Standing down, and thanks for reading until now.

As a younger man I had built and rented residential housing as a part time endeavor, looking to fund my retirement beyond my main job. I had built for me beautiful units, some for handicapped folks, some single, some multi, really nice places. I was competitive with my rents and careful checking out prospective tenants. What I found out is that people DON’T CARE ABOUT STUFF IF IT ISN’T THEIRS. They tore it up, stuck me for anything they could, and generally treated my rental property like crap. I was lucky to get out of it without losing my shirt. Personally I wouldn’t do that, but many folk do. You have to ask the OP, why did he/she rent in the first place? And remember, document everything, all of us have cellphone cameras. I don’t know for certain, but something sounds wrong here, the OP never mentioned how bad the condition was when it was returned. My tenants thought NOTHING of leaving a toilet unflushed, holes in the walls, whatever. More to this story than we’re being told. Rocketman

@bandago–Any vehicle I drive, including rentals, I keep my eye on the gauges and check the oil at gas stops. I don’t want a breakdown. The U-Haul dealer where I rented the oil burning truck saved me money over the charge for a one-way rental. Rent-a-Wreck gave our church a price break on the rental of the van I discussed in an earlier post. Mrs. Triedaq wished, however, that Rent-a-Wreck would have taken a couple of the whining teenagers for at least part of the van rental.

Although the new belt and fluid changes seem like overkill the OP has no defense if the park was specifically restricted in the rental agreement.

The contract plainly stated that both deserts and Burning Man are out of bounds and did so in plain English.

If the OP did not read the contract exclusions then tough.
IF the OP read it and did not care about the exclusions then tough.

Maybe a lesson in life was learned from this. If not, then tough again. :slight_smile:

Whenever I rent a vehicle, I always take photos or a video of the exterior and interior of the car to make sure existing damage is documented before I leave the rental agency’s lot. I do this in the presence of the rental agent and note each flaw I find and have him acknowledge it in the video. Many of them will say “don’t worry about that small scratch, we don’t count them unless they are 2 inches or longer”. Now if I happen to drive in some very muddy or dusty areas I usually give the car a quick cleanup to prevent the rental company from charging me excessive cleaning fees. Usually a dirty car returned to the lot will be given a much more intensive examination than a clean car.