Ford Econoline E-350 driven in a dusty climate. Am I being ripped off?

When a person rents anything, be it a vehicle or a house, there is a certain expectation that one will, at the end of the rent period, return whatever was rented in the condition before it was rented minus normal usage.

I remember when I was first married and rented an apartment. The land lady looked us over and said, “You two look like decent people, so I won’t charge you a deposit.” Three years later, we moved away to go to graduate school. Our landlord and landlady were on vacation, so we made arrangements to sell the draperies we had purchased to the next tenant if she wanted them. When we returned to town and I went to see the landlady, the tenant did want the draperies, but the landlady wrote a check for much more than what we had asked for the draperies. When I pointed that out, she said that the amount included my deposit. When I reminded her that she hadn’t charged me a deposit, she said “Young man, everybody who rents from us pays a deposit. Don’t argue with me”. We did leave the apartment spotless.

On the other hand, when we moved into married student housing at the university we attended for graduate school, the apartment was filthy. We worked for a week to clean it up. When we moved out two years later, we were given a cleaning kit and strict instructions as to how we were to clean the apartment. Many of the people on our floor just forfeited the deposit ($25), but I decided I wanted my deposit. We were even instructed to remove the air vent intakes and reach in and clean them as far as we could reach. The kit included sponges, two screw drivers, a putty knife and some other supplies. When the student manager came to check us out, he literally took a magnifying glass and inspected the inside of the oven. Under the magnifying glass he said he saw grease flecks. I had used oven cleaner and elbow grease and said that if I scraped the grease flecks that he thought he saw it would damage the finish inside the oven. He docked me 2 hours labor @ $2.50 per hour that he said it would take to “properly” clean the oven. He then asked about the screwdrivers. I had inadvertently packed them in the truck I had rented. He told me to go unpack the truck or pay $1 per screwdriver. I bought the screwdrivers. He then said he had gotten me for everything he could and asked me to initial the checkout form. I told him that I wanted him to initial it as well. After he initialed it, I said “Let me now tell you something. You overlooked the putty knife that was in the kit. It’s too late now”. You would have thought I stole $1 million dollars. I still have that putty knife 43 years later. Since I am now retired, if the university wants to retract my degree if I don’t return the putty knife, I’ll keep the putty knife.

Back to automobiles–the university where my wife and I had our careers has a charge-back system from the motor pool to the departments. When my wife’s office hired a recruiter so that my wife wouldn’t have to be on the road, the new person left the inside of a university vehicle trashed. The department was charged for the extra cleanup and the new person was told if it occurred again, she would be out of a job.

google!!!

I googled and I offer Bandango a sincere apology. OK4450 is right, it’s very clear, and I was dead wrong. I should have Googled before posting.

I’ll try to do better in the future. Mea Culpa.

@wesw‌

You may be right . . .

The company might have some search engine set up, which notifies them every time their name is mentioned on the internet

Are you familiar with yelp?

Anyways, I got a windshield installed a few years ago. I made a few phone calls, and got some quotes. For every company I got a quote from, I also looked on yelp, to check out the reviews

As it turns out, the company with the lowest price also had the best yelp reviews

When the windshield was being replaced, I watched and talked to the guy. I mentioned the good reviews. He said straight out, that’s because the owner of the company bribes yelp to get phone numbers, emails, etc. of anybody leaving a bad review of his company. Then he contacts them and explains that if they want to avoid legal proceedings and/or physical pain, they had best retract their negative review, or change it to a positive one. He checks each single one, to make sure it’s been retracted and/or changed

Talk about staying on top of things . . . !

Unfortunately, this is by no means the first time I heard about such strong arm tactics, being used by business owners who got bad reviews on yelp. In fact, there was a scathing review of the company yelp and its practices in the Los Angeles times. 2 scathing articles, actually.

I read these articles long after the windshield was installed

One of the things mentioned in the article . . . yelp tells business owners, they need to bribe yelp, if they want negative reviews to NOT appear. If they don’t pay the bribe, the negative reviews are visible for all to see

I m a luddite db. i ve only bowed to computer use recently, this was the first place i went…

what s it been, a year and a half?

i made a bad decision to avoid computers in the 80 s…, and stuck with it.

i only yelp when injured…

Db, I’m an absolute advocate of a company using technology to identify and review comments about their company, but it should be used to improve the company. Threatening people who write negative reviews with legal action if they don’t retract them is terrible. Terrorizing people by threatening physical action is even worse. If I found out that any company threatened my mom because she wrote a bad review about them, you can bet their threat would be thoroughly investigated by a lawyer and charges filed and the news media accessed if the threats could be verified. I would hope that any company that does that becomes famous for their threats rather than their attributes.

I'm curious about one thing . . .

How did you know your company had been mentioned on the car talk website?

There are services that companies can buy that will tell them when their company is mentioned anywhere on the net. They have these massive servers and sophisticated software that can parse out companies and names.

Here’s just one service…

There are plenty more.

@ok4450‌ here’s another quote from the bottom of the same page:

DISCLAIMER: This information form is for informational purposes only. It is not designed to replace our rental agreement, and our rental agreement suspersedes any information found on this page. Policies may be changed without notice.

So, we still need to see the rental agreement in order to know what the real policy is.

Plus, OP can not reasonably be held to a policy that’s listed on the website because there is no evidence he read that policy. He can be held to whatever policy is in the contract, which is why some of us want to see the policies that OP actually agreed to. Especially since as they say, policies can be changed without notice and so we have no evidence that this policy was in place or listed on the website at the time OP rented the van.

Again, to be very clear, if OP took the van to Burning Man when he knew he wasn’t supposed to, then he was a jerk and should be penalized – but that does not mean he’s responsible for routine maintenance items like tranny fluid exchanges.

At this point I suspect that, if OP really did what @bandago‌ said he did, OP in principle should owe the company some money. However, that needs to be spelled out in the rental agreement.

No one would have a problem with charging OP several hundred for doing something with the vehicle that he was told not to do if that penalty is in the agreement that he signed – but say you’re charging it as a penalty rather than “uh, the transmission fluid needed to be changed because the dude at the dealership told me it did.” That, on the face of it, does not fly.

@wesw a beach is different from a hardpack desert floor. You do not get bogged down on hard ground. People bring RV’s to Burning Man and leave them parked for a week, and then drive out without getting stuck.

To answer some questions:

  1. How I heard about this thread:
    OP was very insistent that dust would not hurt the van and that we were ripping him off. He actually quoted many of you (without attribution). I was curious about his mechanical claims and started googling “e350” “dust” “ford” etc. to see if I could learn more about the effect dust would have on the engine (I am not a mechanic, so when questions get technical or obscure I turn to Google). At some point this thread popped up in Google and here I am. I would have just lurked and learned what I could, but then OP named our company and based on the reaction here I thought “Well I won’t make things any worse if I share our side of the story”. :slight_smile:
    I’m glad I did, it’s been interesting.

  2. Posting our rental agreement: our policies are on our website and we go into far more detail than any other company I’m aware of (can you find one who does more? I challenge you!). I knowingly choose to do this but one negative drawback has been competitors who copy (or slightly modify) our language and use it for their own competing rental companies. You would be shocked how often this happens.

  3. No matter how clear you are, everyone thinks they are an attorney and they will come up with elaborate interpretations of contract language that purely by coincidence favors their preferred outcome. OP for example has argued in several forums that the desert is not “off road” because the desert ground was “packed” (Burning Man is over a mile from the nearest paved road). The twisting and mangling of commonly understood English words and phrases for the purpose of escaping responsibility is a deeply American tradition, but the novelty wore off long ago for me, and I usually just ignore invitations to engage in online debates about contract law. This is a pretty specialized area of law to begin with, and is even more specialized within the car rental industry. In my fairly extensive experience arguments that are based on “technicalities” almost always fail when they get in front of a judge. People have seen way too many movies, and don’t realize that judges aren’t really interested in turning existing case law upside down in order to make room for convuluted legalisms. The vast majority of the time if the facts, evidence, and commonly understood English words and phrases are on your side, you win.

  4. We do not pay for any monitoring services. We never threaten anybody over a review, nor do we pay for good ones. We do respond though. The chips fall wherever they fall and we deal with it as best as we can. I have mixed feelings about Yelp. Like a lot of people I use them when looking for someplace to eat, but I also see them doing things that make me question their integrity. As a business operator I can tell you it’s frustrating: people can and do write things that are provably false, many reviews are completely fake - sometimes by competitors - and when it happens I have to spend my time and energy improving Yelp’s service. It’s like I’m an unpaid contractor for them. As just one example we just got a review a couple days ago (five stars!) in San Francisco that said we were great. Their only critique: we didnt show them how to roll the top down in the convertible. Maybe that would be a fair critique if we rented convertibles. But we don’t. We rent vans. :neutral_face:

The user’s account is obviously some sort of spam robot, and by all rights this should be Yelp’s problem, but now I have to spend my time cleaning it up.

Weird: formatting disappeared when I posted. Sorry for the dense text. :frowning:

so to make a long story short, I was right!!! google!!!

I didn t read your whole post, but I ve already decided that you seem forthright and honest. I think you took a prudent precaution, necessary or not, that your mechanic recommended.

you should stick around. your viewpoint is one that could be valuable here.

wes

Frankly, I don’t really care what the contract spells out. You’re responsible to bring the vehicle back in condition similar to how it left, excluding usual wear and tear. IF bandago is to be believed, the van was returned in, essentially, damaged condition and could not be re-rented until fixed.

(And, as I said before, I’m inclined to believe bandago vs OP, seeing as how OP has done a disappearing act once the whole story came out.)

I also think OP played this poorly. He could have at least cleaned the vehicle up enough to make it passable when returned; could have done so very easily with a pressure washer at a DIY carwash. (I’m not saying that would have been right; I’m saying it would have been tactically sound.) Trash-talking the company online was another stupid move, IMO. Had OP merely contested the add-on charges via his credit card company, odds are good bandago would have had enough of the guy, washed their hands of him, and eaten the costs. NOW that OP made this personal, good luck of that ever happening!

P.S. @bandago, your text appears broken into paragraphs on my Android, but not on my Mac. This site does some pretty funny things when formatting!

I agree with pretty much everything you said, @meanjoe75fan‌ . But I don’t think that OP being a jerk automatically gives a company carte blanche to tack any charge they or their mechanic can come up with onto OP’s bill. If OP did it, then he should be responsible for restoring the van to the condition it was in before he rented it, which means he drops a few hundred on an inside-and-out detail job including the engine compartment. He should also be responsible for any fines stipulated in the contract that are not illegal stipulations.

I think it’s important to stick to the contract, because otherwise we are setting the precedent that it’s OK to drain someone’s bank account to punish them for minor transgressions.

The guy got dirt on a van. He didn’t kidnap the CEO’s wife. Penalties need to be in line with the offense, and they need to make sense. “As per the agreement that you signed, we are fining you $750 for violating the contract’s stipulations” would have made a lot more sense than “You got it dirty! You’re replacing all the fluids and the belt because we said so!”

Yes, Bandago is coming off as a reasonable guy, and assuming that he is, it’s probably just that OP had to pay him an extra money. But unless that money is a reasonable amount (I’m unconvinced that $750 is reasonable, but as it’s unlikely we’ll ever see the paper trail, that’s just a guess) and is collected under legitimate contractual stipulations, a less ethical business owner might come along and use the idea to screw his customers. “You got cat hair on this tuxedo. I’m charging you for the cleaning! And replacing the buttons! And the lining! My tailor said it was necessary and I have to listen to him!” I feel fairly confident we can agree that this would be an absurd situation.

The main criticism I have of Bandago’s posts here is that he’s pleading ignorance regarding automotive subjects. He said he had to replace the fluids and all that other stuff because a mechanic told him to and he doesn’t know any better. That’s pretty pathetic for a guy whose livelihood revolves around automotive subjects. Unnecessary maintenance and unwarranted “repairs” are going to hurt his bottom line and so he should educate himself as to these matters to avoid being screwed himself, as I suspect he was here.

He does not get to use his willful ignorance of how vans work as an excuse to pass the buck when his mechanic screws him.

@shadowfax‌

I can’t see why you’re so dogged about this unless you may have been charged like this before. It’s no stretch for me to believe that if I owned this business, you’re d@mn tootin’ I’d be following the professional advice of a mechanic regarding what needs to be done to restore the van to pre-rental service levels. You think in a court of law they are going to listen to a CEO explain how he overruled the opinion of a professional mechanic? Sorry, that’s a proposition for sending your company into the litigation toilet right behind the tidy bowl man…

Considering they have everything to lose why is it so hard to believe that they do not spell it out fairly clearly and the idiot that rented the van was just that, an idiot who didn’t give a d@mn about their property and is used to playing the victim after the fact?

I’ve rented Jeeps out in Moab. They spend a lot of time explaining what can and cannot be done, where you can and cannot go and the contracts also spell this out. There are still people out in the areas specifically told not to be and many get away with it. I expect when caught, many whine about how it wasn’t explained properly or they just didn’t understand.

Once you damage someone’s property, you’re on the hook for a lot of things YOU may not feel are justified. Personally, I think the guy got off light at $750 considering the potential for long term damage that may not reveal itself for years to come.

This time, the bomb drop didn’t work because the other side showed up to the debate armed with facts and a solid position. I applaud his defense of his business and reputation. I wish more companies took an active role in defending themselves in these forums.

@TwinTurbo‌ In the first place, we have no more proof that Bandago is legit than we did of OP - all we have are two faceless internet names accusing each other.

I think in a court of law, everything’s up in the air. Plenty of open and shut cases have turned out to be not quite so open and shut. You never really know what’s going to happen once you get into court. Just in the last week the court system decided that choking a black man to death for no legitimate reason isn’t even worth going to trial over.

So none of us, even if some of us are lawyers (which as far as I know none of us are) can say with any kind of certainty what would happen if Bandago were sued.

What I can say is that it shouldn’t be too hard for Bandago to find a mechanic who would testify under oath that, no, the transmission fluid did not make the power steering go out. It wouldn’t be hard to find one to testify that even if the power steering went out, that’s not why the vehicle rolled at 60mph, because as we all know, power steering is really nice at low speeds, but isn’t really necessary at the kinds of speeds where you roll vehicles.

I’ll also point out that unless Bandago is incredibly negligent toward his business, he carries insurance for just such occurrences.

Anyway, the reason I’m so dogged is because I believe in fairness, and in this case I believe that if OP did what Bandago says he did, OP was a tool and deserves to lose money over it, but that does not ethically obligate OP to pay for unnecessary work on the vehicle.

If I rent a car and return it with a ding in the fender, I’m obligated to pay for the ding in the fender. I’m not obligated to pay for an oil change, or a transmission fluid change, even if the ding got there because I was doing something they told me not to do.

In my opinion, Bandago should have a “if you take it to Burning Man, you pay us an extra $(x) plus necessary repairs/cleaning” clause in his contract. As it stands, it appears the policy is “don’t take it to Burning Man. I have no idea what I’m going to charge you if you do, and neither will you, but it’s gonna involve anything the mechanic wants to get paid for whether it’s needed or not.” That doesn’t make sense.

I don’t know why I need to comment but . . . The thing is contract law with rentals is a lot different that criminal law with a person being supposedly choked while being arrested. In contracts you are generally expected to perform at the level that is reasonable regardless of any particular quirks in the actual document. If it says by 5:00 and are trying to say that was 5:00 in the morning, that’s just not going to do it “usually”. If you say off road is not off road because the salt is hard packed and a mile off the normal road is not really off road, I find that a little tiring. I always return stuff in as good or even better condition than I got it and have even been known to repair something myself. That is unless it was a piece of junk in the first place. That’s pretty much all anyone expects. Use it and return it in a reasonable condition.

I had a guy that worked for me that rented a car to take cross country. He bragged about how they abused it by driving it off road, through creeks, etc. I don’t know if he got a surcharge or not on its return, but he sure deserved it. Maybe he sprayed off all the grass and mud from underneath first.

I had a negotiation with an old lawyer once and he told me a story as part of it as he was trying to get the upper hand. The punch line was that we’ve already determined what you are, we are just negotiating the price now. We already know that the guy abused the vehicle, its just a matter of the final damages. Somewhere between $1 and $750. Seems to me though a bunch of guys on the internet saying a fluid change isn’t necessary doesn’t add much weight compared to a certified dealer mechanic.

oh bing. you were doing so well until that last line…

I m gonna sit back and watch the sparks fly now…

Well you know what I meant. Judge Judy’s not going to care what even the highly qualified and experienced folks here say unless its on dealer letterhead. Me on the other hand listen to the highly qualified folks here.

…nice save.

It could be looked at this way. Assume as a private individual you rented your near new van to your next door neighbor with the stipulation no offroad, no desert, no Burning Man, or no mushing sled dogs in Alaska.

You get the van returned and left in the drive absolutely filthy in, out, under, and who knows where with absolutely no idea what has happened to it mechanically.

Going to give the neighbor a non-chalant free pass even if problems start surfacing several months or even several years later?