The last one of these "experts" that I listened to (my kids bought me the book as a joke) said that parts of the U.S. would now be under water because of wasteful ways. Turns out... get this... that the reason we aren't is because the continents are much more absorbent than the "experts" realized. Right.
Anyone who thinks Science is an absolute doesn’t know science. Our model of the Earth/Universe changes constantly as we learn more and things change. That doesn’t then mean the all science is junk because predictions made decades or centuries ago were wrong. If that’s the case…Sir Isaac Newton was an idiot and his scientific theories should be thought of as garbage.
“That doesn’t then mean the all science is junk because predictions made decades or centuries ago were wrong.”
I certainly hope that you aren’t implying that I believe all science is junk.
Some of the so-called “science” is driven by a social-political agenda or to strictly enrich somebody (or both). That’s junk.
CSA
Would Some Internet Savvy Person Please Find Out What The DOE Pays Expert Stephen Ciatti?
What Is His Salary?
I know that our Federal Government is beyond flat broke and in debt over our eyeballs, but I did hear somewhere that it’s the most “transparent” government in our nation’s history. Why can’t I seem to easily find this information. Perhaps he donates his time and talents?
Please help.
Thanks,
CSA
Some of the so-called "science" is driven by a social-political agenda or to strictly enrich somebody (or both).
Yes…all you have to do is follow the science from the oil industry and coal industry. And then there’s people like Michelle Bachmann who said that Carbon Monoxide isn’t harmful…and the earth is 6000 years old. Oh Yea…you’re right…they have a political agenda.
I Did Read Some Of Ciatti’s Research And Learned Quite A Bit Of Useful Information About Saving Fuel While Driving.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/5-physics-properties-that-affect-your-gas-mileage
My take-away includes:
Don’t make jackrabbit starts
Don’t go too fast
Choose a car that’s aerodynamic, not boxy
Keep your tires inflated properly
Don’t needlessly run the AC
Oh wait, I knew all of that. :neutral:
CSA
Oh wait, I knew all of that.
And yet it’s been explained in this forum alone to many other individuals who never new it. The information is there…but many people ignore it or just never learned it.
“And yet it’s been explained in this forum alone to many other individuals who never new it. The information is there…but many people ignore it or just never learned it.”
I just generally ignore it, but just look at that Grand Prix (pictured here)! That little beauty is really aerodynamic!
CSA
Excessive idling definitely wastes gas, since you’re getting nowhere; but if it is cold outside, whether you are idling or driving down the road, it is still cold outside. So you’d think those effects caused by cold weather would still occur either way.
@Idle-Free:
Anyone wanting to let their car idle for 5 minutes before getting into it on cold mornings (because they like a warm car) should have no reservation doing so. They will never see any engine harm.
Will it cost them an extra few cents in gas? Sure. But that’s no different than an unplanned trip to the store because they forgot to buy milk.
My late father-in-law systematically murdered his car engine.
It started out when he did not like the way the paper boy delivered his paper. He decided to go up the road to 7-11 and buy it himself.
His large Mercury Grand Marquis was always parked outside with no pug-in block heater. He would start up the car, drive 1/4 mile to the store, shut the car off buy the paper, start the car up again and drive home. Being retired he did not have to go to work, but usually went to his veteran’s club in the afternoon, the only time the car warmed up sufficiently.
Oil companies call this the “Aunt Minnie Test” since it is the absolute worst thing you can do to an engine over time. It results in a crankcase full of sludge, water and raw gas.
When buying a car from a senior, check the dipstick; if there is any crud on it, don’t buy the car.
Idle-Free: That is exactly what I do. Cold temperatures are rare where I live. Usually a handful of mid 20s. For a sitting overnight “cold start” I idle until 1,500 RPM drops to 1,000 RPM (15 to 30 seconds) then drive gently for a couple of minutes. A few years ago I overheard a man telling another about the average MPG display in his new Malibu. He stated it was inaccurate because everyone knows an idling engine uses less fuel than an engine being driven. At idle he could watch MPG drop on his display. I guess he was unaware of what “M” in MPG stands for!
Idle-Free: “As to any driving placing more of a load, not if you don’t exceed the idle rpm which can be around 1,500-2,000 - of course, you can’t do that if you have to get right onto a 40 mph road.” I was confused by your statement. It’s less than 200’ from my driveway to a 35 mph road then 1/2 mile to a 55 mph highway and 18 miles to the city. I can easily stay below 2,000 RPM the entire distance. Is that because I drive a 6 speed M/T and have complete control over RPM verses speed? 35 mph/4th gear=1,800 RPM, 55 mph/6th gear=1,800 RPM. I can do this while accelerating normally from the 2 stop signs.
Automobile maintenance, repair and operation each have an inherent predisposition for acquiring malignant OCD that is nearly equal to being politically affiliated.
“When buying a car from a senior, check the dipstick; if there is any crud on it, don’t buy the car.”
Ouch! I’m going to have to call “Discrimination!” on this one.
LOL… A driver or owner does not have to be a senior in order to make frequent short trips and screw up a car. Screwing up a car is an equal opportunity blunder.
May I rephrase the statement?
When buying a car from a senior, check the dipstick; if there is any crud on it, don’t buy the car.
@Docnick
I’m just joking, of course. 
@csa Any low mileage car is suspect of course. However, I actually know a senior lady who has an immaculate older (2007) Accord with low mileage. She lives 20 miles out of town and comes into town once a week or so. The rest of the time the car is used locally. It has been maintained by the dealer and is close to perfect.
That’s the kind of used car to look for.
JoeMario - If a doctor told me I have cancer, I would not ignore it. If Mr. Ciatti, an expert in his field http://www.anl.gov/contributors/steve-ciatti and other engine experts tell me idling is not good for an engine, I will heed that advice. Fortunately, most sensible, open-minded people will also.
As to an unplanned trip to the store, the impact is more than financial. All over the U.S., unplanned trips consume millions of gallons of fuel and thousands of tons of carbon emissions. I think Click and Clack would be on board with that.
sgtrock21 - The goal is to try to stay at or below 2,000 rpm during the warm-up phase. My 2014 Impreza has a temperature indicator light that will stay on for about two minutes in cold weather warm ups. During this time, as I drive gently to warm up, the engine revs around 1500. On a level road, I don’t even push the accelerator - it goes on its own at about 15-20 mph on my town road. At 35 mph, unless it’s uphill you should be able to keep it at or below 2000. But if only 1/2 mile to a 55 mph highway, that could be a bit iffy for putting a premature load on an engine on a cold day. Maybe a slightly longer than 30 second stationary warm up time would be good. Maybe you can keep the rpms down better with a M/T but a daily burst up to 55 in an only partially warmed up engine might be a problem over time.
Are you talking idle in general or for warmup? Either way our work vehicles, some going back to 1993 probably have as much as 3x idleing hours vs driving hours, and have not suffered.
@Idle-Free:
I’m sorry. I need to respectfully disagree.
For anyone not wanting to get into a cold car, if they let their engine warm up for 5 minutes before they drive off, please explain what engine wear will negatively impact their engine’s life, and at what mileage will that impact negatively affect the vehicle? (100K, 200K, 300K?)
As for “the unplanned trip to the store to buy milk”, sure it uses gas. Who cares when it’s more important to have that milk, or whatever you forgot at the store?
Sunday afternoon drives with the family or a significant also use gas.
Should we no longer take those drives?
Barkydog (is that a westie for your avatar? I have a westie - great dogs) - I’m talking about all idling. All I can do is relay what experts say (and I haven’t seen what the shortened engine life in miles is).
First, from Ford: How idle time impacts engine maintenance
And here’s some heavy-duty engine manufacturers quotes:
• Caterpillar Inc. “How much is idle time costing you” document states, “Turn off trucks that are waiting more than 5 minutes to load or unload.” and “Restrict morning warm-ups to 3 to 5 minutes.”
• Caterpillar Global On-Highway representative states, “There is no additional wear when shutting the truck on/off several times a day. There are benefits in fuel economy and wear/durability when shutting the truck down rather than idling.”
• Cummins Inc. MPG Guide states, “…avoid unnecessary engine idling. The vehicle gets its worst mpg when the engine runs and the truck doesn’t move. Every hour of idle time in a long-haul operation can decrease fuel efficiency by 1%.”
• Daimler Trucks North America/Freightliner Trucks: “The belief that idling a diesel engine causes no engine damage is wrong. Idling produces sulfuric acid, that is absorbed by the lubricating oil, and eats into bearings, rings, valve stems, and engine surfaces.”
• Detroit Diesel notes that along with other fuel-efficient habits, it’s critical to educate drivers on the role of shorter idle times. “Optimizing driver habits alone can improve fuel economy by up to 30%”.
• IC Corporation’s engine manual states that “…Excessive idling reduces fuel economy, and may decrease oil life.”
• Kenworth Truck Co. representative states, “Starting and stopping the engine is actually easier on the engine than prolonged idling.”
• Navistar/International Trucks: “When a truck is stopped and idling, it is achieving zero miles per gallon. In fact, it burns through about a gallon per hour, decreasing overall fuel economy by 1 percent.” “Unnecessary idling increases cost of ownership and also results in excessive engine wear and additional pollution.”
An engine is very durable, but does have a finite life. Prolonged idling puts more “miles” on the engine. The motor oil needs to be changed more frequently. Carbon soot build-up in an engine from prolonged idling is not good for an engine. Obviously, an engine will last longer if it idles less.