Do your sanity and wallet a big favor and push/drag/tow this vehicle to a reputable shop. As mentioned above, this sounds like a very fishy story. Again, dealerships are for warranty work, PERIOD
BTW, dealer said they will not charge me for the water pump even though they replaced it. They wanted the loaner back today. This is the same dealer where we bought the car. Are they quoting so high in the event they find more problems when they dig into it. How much does both heads itself cost for parts?May be tomorrow I need to shop around local repair shops. One reputed shop whom I go to usually, has a wait time.
Guys, I just looked on my chilton labor times
Replace both cylinder heads, 2007 ES350 regular time 29.0hrs
While I don’t doubt that many of us could do it in less time, if Chilton says 29hrs, it must clearly be an extremely difficult engine to work on
It has been my experience, if Chilton says high labor times, the job is pretty difficult, or at least extremely labor intensive
Do you mean the VSC light came on rather than what you said, the VHC light? And what is meant by the ‘head didn’t have pressure’? Is that the oil pressure in the cylinder head was measured to be low? Or the coolant pressure? Usually when referring to pressure it would mean the oil. Is it possible the engine oil level was low? That could cause the engine to overheat. Before the dealer shop started to work on the car, did you (or they) check the oil level? The coolant level? Has this car had all its routine engine maintenance (per the owner’s manual) done on schedule (per both time and miles), especially oil and filter changes and coolant changes? All of that info is helpful to determine if replacing the cylinder heads is the best way to go here, or replacing the engine.
Replacement engines usually come with a warranty, 1-3 years usually. Make sure yours has at least a 1 year warranty written into the repair contract before agreeing to do that.
hmm … the only other thing I can think of is that you didn’t notice the dash temp gauge moving any higher than normal. Is it possible it happened during the 45 minute drive and you just didn’t notice; i.e. you looked before the drive, and not again? Do you know if an audio alarm is supposed to turn on if the coolant reaches the red zone?
Cylinder heads are $1,040 each. Gaskets, coolant and oil about $300. Labor is 32 hours.
That would be the most expensive route should the heads be warped. If the is no compression this would indicate the engine may have over heated and the heads are warped. If their initial assessment was that there is no coolant in the engine because of the water pump leak it is likely the engine suffered some damage.
You can have the engine torn down for inspection but if a second shops compression test proves there is no compression you can expect the cylinder heads are warped. The serviceable limit on warpage is 0.10 MM or 0.0039 inches. That is a very low tolerance.
Take a look at the prices for a used engine on Ebay from large auto recyclers so you can get an idea how much a used engine will cost.
GeorgeJanJose: No issue with Engine Oil. It was changed at 56K in April and was at the right level when I checked the day I took car to them. I myself checked that. Mechnic never said oil is low either. Apparently, they do something called “compression test” and that was not held well by the engine. Drive back from work is max 35 minutes
Nevada_545: So, two heads plus gasket is around $2380 plus 32 hours of labor? How much would be the labor to remove current engine and put a used one? Do Ebay ones come with warranty?
I don’t think Nevada is suggesting that you actually buy an engine on Ebay, I think he’s only providing a place to get price references so you know what to expect. If you do decide on a used engine, work with your shop NOT THE DEALER and let him get one. Legitimate companies use Ebay now, but so do a great many scam artists. Unfortunately, sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference.
Another option is a rebuilt engine. Again, work with your shop.
All of this assumes that a second, reputable, independent shop confirms the diagnosis of the dealer.
The Lexus labor guide and Alldata don’t show a labor quote for replacing a complete engine. It will be up to the technician to quote the labor. 12-15 hours would be in the ball park. As an example the warranty labor just to replace the rear main crankshaft seal is 7.6 hours.
Warranty on a used engine will depend on the seller. Look at large companies with multiple locations to reduce shipping costs. LKQ is a large supplier of used parts for body shops and offers a 6 month warranty in the example below.
But first use this as a guide or alternative when inquiring at the shop that will be performing the work. That shop may have a preferred source for used engines but there will be a price make up.
The dealer didn’t offer a used engine but if it is an average size dealer they are installing used engines when aftermarket warranty companies will only pay for used. It is not something forbidden or against policy, you have to ask for a used alternative.
I’m still baffled by the reason for needing another pair of heads. Low compression, blown head gaskets, or whatever is not necessarily a reason to scrap them.
I’m also curious about compression numbers and whether or not the engine has even been torn into. Due to the murkiness it comes across as a bit suspect.
For what it’s worth, AutoZone shows reman heads complete with camshafts for 5-600 dollars each and there’s no reason to think that other parts houses are not in the same range.
There’s still the lingering issue of the lower end but a complete compression and/or leakdown test could have shed some light on that.
Before you decide to repair or tow the vehicle to a different shop you should have a face to face meeting with the technician and service adviser. Take someone with a little automotive knowledge to view the car and judge if the repairs needed make sense. With repairs over $1,000 I expect an interview with the customer but 98% of them don’t seem to care.
This is a glorified Toyota Camry v6 with a really nice interior. Maybe try a Japanese or general shop for another quote.
I had and engine removal/reinstall, valve job, and $1300 in new parts replaced including piston rings for $2800 on a Subaru Legacy turbo done.
Ok, the “pressure” problem mentioned in the OP refers to the cylinder compression. If the oil level is ok, about the only way the compression would be low is if the engine overheated. There’s other ways, but not very likely-to-happen ones. So if the OP didn’t notice the engine overheating, if that means it actually didn’t overheat while the OP was driving it, then the only conclusion is that the engine overheated after the drive, i.e. while the car was in the shop.
If the overheating occured while the car was under the control of the shop, that could put a different spin on how this situation should be resolved. I think it’s important for the OP to get to the bottom of that, and a good start is to determine if there is an audible alarm the driver would clearly hear corresponding to an engine overheat condition.
The low compression could also be due to burnt valves
A cylinder leakdown test could help confirm or deny this
If you experienced a rapid coolant loss, your temp gauge won’t read the high temp if the coolant level falls below the sensor. The dealer is right, 45 miles is way too far to drive after the light came on. I too would vote for an independant shop and a used engine.
I have a question: Did the car run o.k. on the way to the dealer? If so, I don’t understand " that there is no pressure in engine head". With no compression, or very low compression, I would think that the car would run very poorly.
Car was driven to the dealer shop with no “poor performance issue”. Lights (Engine, slippery sign and VSC were on throughout those) were on. To the previous poster, the 45 miles were not driven in one shot (10 miles to work 25 miles back and 3-4 miles to the dealer). When you say rapid cooling loss, do you mean the water pump failed excessively all of a sudden and the coolant was lost rapidly below level? Regarding other posters who asked earlier whether the dealer opened the engine etc, both the mechanic and the customer rep were away on Saturday and I have to ask them on Monday. This question makes me think I should ask the next independent repair shop how they would diagnose the problem. To determine if the head is damaged or not, compression test wont help - corrrect? If the problem is only with head gasket, estimates, they are giving is about $13 to $15K. But, to see if the heads are damaged, do they have to rip the head apart or what else they need to do? How many hours of labor is that type of diagnostic?
sorry… not 13K to 15K… just $1300 - $1500
Regarding GeorgeSanJose’s qstn, i did not find anywherein my webserac about an audible alarm about engine heat for es350. We did not hear it. As far as dealer workshop is concerned, at a person to person interaction level, they have been good to me. My disappointment is more with Lexus. Someone else also said water pump for this make failed at 58K. These are all very early failures. Lexus doesnt seem to be owning these reliabilty problems.
The type of compression test used to diagnose a possible head gasket failure is called a “leakdown test” or “compression leakdown test”. The engine is tested one cylinder at a time. The crankshaft is rotated until both valves are closed, air is pumped into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, and using a gage the pressure is monitored to see if the cylinder holds it. If it fails to, that’s a sign that there’s a breech in the head gasket allowing leakage from the cylinder.
There are other ways to diagnose a blown headgasket. If there is one, combustion gasses from that cylinder will be getting blown into the water jacket. These gasses contain hydrocarbons, and there is a lab test for the coolant to check for the presence of hydrocarbons. A positive test result means you have a headgasket breech.
On your case you may have a water pump failure so this might not be possible, but if you remove the radiator cap and start the engine and bubbles come up out the coolant fill hole, that’s a pretty sure sign that you have a bad head gasket. The bubbles would be the combustion gasses being blown into the water jacket and migrating up to the system high point, the fill hole.
Warpage to the engine’s head cannot be determined without removing the head. The head needs to be set on a “flat plate” and measured for warpage. Warpage would require that the head be disassembled and machined (“milled”) back to flat, then reassembled and everything readjusted.
Yes, by all means, ask questions of the shop. Think of the shop as being a subcontractor. You should ask questions, you should open the line of communication. Understand that not all great mechanics are great communicators, and accept that, but by all means talk to him. If more people asked more questions there’d be far fewer problems… and a lot more crooks would be out of business.
mountainbike
I’ll go slightly off topic . . .
“Understand that not all great mechanics are great communicators, and accept that, but by all means talk to him. If more people asked more questions there’d be far fewer problems… and a lot more crooks would be out of business.”
I agree with your statement
But there is something else to consider . . . if there is a great and honest mechanic who is not a great communicator, the customer might interpret that to mean he is incompetent and/or shady.
And the business would suffer.