Electric Cars Crash

“That makes no sense…unless you have extremely low electric rates. The upfront cost of Solar can be expensive…but the actual cost of producing electricity from solar is $0. Solar hasn’t taken off because the up-front cost is so much and it’ll take you 10+ years to pay off the return.”

A solar farm has been constructed near here in Haywood county, TN. The total cost to build this is $62.5M. It will produce about 7,000,000 kW hours per year. The TVA is paying the state about $1M/year for this output. That works out to about $.1428 per kW hour, which is higher than the local rate we pay as consumers. At that rate, it will take 62.5 years to pay off this “investment”. That’s assuming the equipment will even last that long and it doesn’t take in annual maintenance costs, like cutting down all the new trees every year.

“And the most efficient use of Solar is for individual homes/businesses…NOT a huge grid that’s servicing thousands of people.”

You make a very good point here. One of the big costs in a solar farm, especially around here on land zoned for industrial use is the cost of the land. It is a shame to use expensive land when there is so much unused acreage on tops of industrial buildings, parking lots etc. I have seen a small solar farm built over a parking lot. Good use of the land and shade for the cars too.

The utilities of our country like their source of power to come from concentrated areas. They don’t like the idea of a distributed source. That does involve a lot of logistics such as putting meters at every source, paying each source and reading the meters. That will add a lot to the cost of collecting solar energy, possibly more than the amortized cost of the solar panels themselves.

But, there is one more thing to consider, despite the current cost of solar, the costs could come down significantly. New advances in the panels, the metering systems etc could bring down the cost of a distributed source solar system, but that won’t happen unless we begin investing now.

“I think the potential is there to make even a 100 mile range EV viable.”

I think we need a new generation of storage battery for EVs to be viable. The Leaf is quoted at 99 MPG equivalent, but I doubt that is possible in traffic or with the heater or AC running. In another 5 years or so there should be several EVs capable of a real 100 MPG equivalent.

“The utilities of our country like their source of power to come from concentrated areas. They don’t like the idea of a distributed source”.
Keith, you made a good point. I wonder if ultimately electrical power will follow the same model used for distributed processing in the computer world. There are very few big mainframes left with each user linked with a terminal. We have a client/server model. The internet is a network of networks with no central point. This is its real strength. I like the idea of each household generating power and buying or selling power to a grid as needed.

I’m intrigued by the EVs, but they are pricey, I don’t have a garage (worried about theft), and I live where it gets cold in the winter - not sure how that will affect the battery life. So, I’m waiting to see, and I’m also waiting for infrastructure to support them.

I agree with those who pointed out that electricitiy isn’t necessarily the the greenest or cheapest way to go.

“The utilities of our country like their source of power to come from concentrated areas. They don’t like the idea of a distributed source.”

Utilities want to control the sources so that they can make as much money as possible. Our local power utility is required by the state to buy excess power from customers that have alternate generation sources, like rooftop semiconductor collectors. My neighbor has a system and gets paid for excess electricity he generates. He put in a meter to measure the electricity he sells to the utility. It offsets the Kw-hrs he uses, but it is not a profitable alternative. He figures that even with the tax incentives and rebates he received, it will take something like 20 years to pay off. He installed it about 5 years ago, so payoff might be sooner if the incentives are still the same.

“I agree with those who pointed out that electricitiy isn’t necessarily the the greenest or cheapest way to go.”

It’s very green. Centrally generated electricity is well controlled. Generators are required to clean up gases and water polluted by the generation process. A central processing facility is much easier to control than many decentralized facilities. I’m thinking of fuel-burning generators, which account for something like 95% of power generated in the USA. It could be greener by burning natural gas, but central generation is cleaner than you and I burning oil in our furnaces.

Utilities want to control the sources so that they can make as much money as possible.

Look what happened to CA about 15 years ago…with their rolling black-outs…The power company said it was due to huge demand…but later it turned out to be the power companies themselves shutting down certain plants at certain times so the other plants could charge more money (a LOT MORE MONEY)…This was a HUGE profit for them. So much so they kept doing it until someone blew the whistle. Profit for the power company in CA jumped almost 300% that summer.

I’ve thought, for several years now, that the model for how we all build any building, home or business, should be changed forever.

From this point forward no building should be constructed WITHOUT solar panels on the roof.
No matter which direction it’s facing, every little bit helps.

Jusy imagine WHAT IF every building had solar panels.

Jusy imagine WHAT IF every building had solar panels.

One estimate done 20 years ago…was that if every building in NYC had solar panels it would generate 20% of all the electricity in NYC…Not bad considering how inefficient the solar panels were then. Even with the increase in electric use since 20 years…the increased efficiency in the solar panels should yield at least 20% or more.

But electric companies don’t want that…No control over the system.

I bet if the same money was spent on better insulation and higher-efficiency HVAC we’d save a lot more money…

Gotta spend all these billions wisely. If you want to put panels on buildings, go to the sun belt, get a lot more watts per dollar there. LA, Phoenix would be two top targets for that. And at least the electricity would track the AC loads, unlike with wind power.

I bet if the same money was spent on better insulation and higher-efficiency HVAC we’d save a lot more money…

Agree…you spend the money where it’s most efficient.

Solar doesn’t make much sense for a electric company…but they do make sense for individuals if they have the right location. Prices drop a little more for Solar panels I may consider it. I have a perfect location…lots of sun with a large roof structure to hold at least 16 4x8 solar panels.

“you made a good point. I wonder if ultimately electrical power will follow the same model used for distributed processing in the computer world.”

It could happen, but that will take a big change in the infrastructure of our power grid and a shift in the mindset of its managers. It was a big change in mindset to accept the wind farms. Even though they are a point source for the utility companies, their output is extremely small when compared to a coal/gas fired or nuclear power plant. Even worse when it comes to wind farms is that many are “catch as catch can”. When the wind blows, the utilities have to cut back on the coal/gas fired plants.

Personally, I’d like to see more research money go into thermo-nuclear fusion power. A breakthrough in this area would really solve a lot of problems.

Personally, I’d like to see more research money go into thermo-nuclear fusion power. A breakthrough in this area would really solve a lot of problems.

They’ve been talking about a break-through in this area for YEARS…For the last 30+ years they’ve been saying within 10 years.

I think there are less costly and more beneficial technologies that could use funding.

Yep. Fusion is the ultimate vaporware. Even if they figure out how to do it (no one has, without requiring a large facility - namely the sun - to do it) it’ll be decades before the technology filters down to where it’s usable for real-world power generation.

What really needs to happen with electric cars is that the power pack needs to be made by one manufacturer, and all the car companies need to design their car around it. That’s how it works with gas, and that’s why I don’t have to find a Honda gas station whenever I need to fill up.

Once you have a standardized powerpack, that’s modular, you pull into a gas station, they pull your old powerpack, put in a freshly charged one, and you’re on your way in 5-10 minutes. Then they charge the one you just dropped off, and toss it in someone else’s car.

This having to charge for at least 2 hours (if you rapidcharge, which hurts the batteries) is not going to fly for most people.

“It’s very green. Centrally generated electricity is well controlled. Generators are required to clean up gases and water polluted by the generation process. A central processing facility is much easier to control than many decentralized facilities. I’m thinking of fuel-burning generators, which account for something like 95% of power generated in the USA. It could be greener by burning natural gas, but central generation is cleaner than you and I burning oil in our furnaces.”

Many power plants in my area rely upon coal, and coal isn’t that green in my opinion - have you seen what coal mining does to the environment? Not to mention that burning coal isn’t so clean either. In general, fossil fuel fired electric plants have environmental costs, less so for natural gas, but still there (fracking anyone?). I’m not saying that I’m a tree-hugger, but I am saying that it is disingenuous to claim that an electric car gets a free pass environmentally speaking.

“Solar doesn’t make much sense for a electric company…”

It might in the Southwest. There are a few pilot plants testing this out now.

There’s so much line loss in transmission that it’s far far better to have individual homes with Solar then to have solar farms. The closer you can get the use of electricity to the source the better.

Solar’s about the only source that works ok, small or large. Wind turbines just keep getting bigger, but a solar panel is the same power/area, 1 or 100 of them.

Solar power isn’t just photovoltaic conversion. There are pilot plants that use solar concentration to melt salt. The molten salt flows through a heat exchanger in a boiler to produce steam and the steam turns a generator. If the salt resevoir is large enough, the process can be continued even in the dark.

True, I was just commenting on solar panels, not centralized solar plants with large mirror arrays focused on a central collector. But those are huge. I wonder how much land we’re going to want to dedicate to them.