We are having an interesting and well-behaved conversation
I see no reason to close this just yet
I’ll stir it up a bit more . . .
Someday soon, perhaps all gasoline powered cars will be flex fuel certified
If/when that day arrives, I hope it will still be possible to buy “real” gasoline
I’m actually ok with E10 or less. Ethanol is a good octane enhancer, now that MTBE is out. Just not in favor of major subsidies/mandates.
One of the reasons E15 has dropped off is because some say we’ve hit the ‘blend wall’, where we simply cannot produce enough ethanol to blend into the nation’s gas supply. Also, that explains why E85 has become harder to find. Switch grass and wood chip ethanol just hasn’t developed into a viable product. So, we are stuck burning food as fuel.
“burning food as fuel.”
It’s funny to think that what’s growing in “the fields” is going into my fuel tank versus my ever growing belly
LOL . . . ?!
That’s not what the ‘blend wall’ is. The ‘blend wall’ is a result of the law mandating a target gallons/year of ethanol production, rather than a percent. With 10% the practical maximum and decreasing gas consumption because of improved fuel economy there aren’t enough gallons of gas for all the ethanol mandated by the regulations, so the refiners hit the ‘blend wall’ with nowhere to put the mandated excess ethanol.
Just another example of how badly designed the regulation was.
Read more here:
http://www.eia.gov/oog/info/twip/twiparch/100708/twipprint.html
Db, your prognostication may be correct. I only hope that if it does happen, it will have been because of changes in the marketplace and not because of mandates.
I just watched one of my favorite shows; “Twilight Zone”. This episode was about a poor struggling but honest shops owner and his wife who get four wishes granted from a genie in a bottle. They discover that wishes all have consequences. Their last wish is that everything be back the way it was. Mandates are like wishes. They all have consequences. To date, I’ve not personally been pleased with the consequences of ethanol mandates.
There is more truth and wisdom in the old Twilight Zone series than any current source that I know of.
The truth is, ethanol which was designed to be used for many reasons, economy for the consumer being one, it will never live up to that particular goal. It’s use is manipulated and contrived so everyone gets a cut if the action at the consumer’s expense. While we all get worked up over how much ethanol is used at great expense to our pocket books in just about every way, gasoline continues to flow from our refineries out onto the world market, which keeps our gas prices high. In that respect, even e10 is a scam. That’s where I differ with those who are happy with that level. I will be happy with it only if I have a choice.
Haven’t read the rest of the posts-why would you want to use E85?
Heres a little tale on Hi test vs E85
The Boss and a couple of cronies were headed to Montana in the Boss’s Suburban,the deal was the three of them would alternate on paying for the fillup of the truck(SUV) at every gas station,the Boss would insist on hi test,because the Suburban loved it.All was fine,until it was the Boss’s turn to fillup ,He gleefully filled the Suburban up with E85(after all it was His vehicle) and gloated about the price(of course the taxpayer footed part of the bill) mileage plumetted from 17+ to around 9 mpg,the Boss wanted the other guys to step up and make the difference up(they refused)-Kevin
Hey ,another thought ,beings as I sorta read the rest of the posts,replies get deleted all the time,vulgar language isnt tolerated and it seems the real big curse words are tolerated( to D@#$-means you want God to put it in H$[[-a pretty strong judgement to be sure) and why not just hand the Farmers( not ADM or Cargill) the little extra using the corn for alcohol generates and leaving the rest of us alone?-Kevin
You mean pay a little extra in extortion in addition to the billions of dollars in subsidies they already get?
Ethanol would be more efficient if the engines ran higher compression ratios. A big part of the problem is that E85 burns at the same compression ratio as E10. I’m not sure how an engine could be set up for variable compression ratios. Ethanol racing engines run at about 15:1 ratio, while most e10 engines run at about 10:1. The cars would have to be dedicated to E85 to e100 if the compression ratio became 15:1. I think that the infrastructure for E100 and higher compression engines would make the cost too high.
Jt, I would argue that these are all just ways around the problems created by our being forced to use something that doesn’t work, that causes problems, and that nobody wants anyway. The problem is ethanol. The real root of the problem, the reason all this is going on, is corruption in the beltway.
♫ This is the thread that never ends…♫
“Ethanol would be more efficient if the engines ran higher compression ratios. A big part of the problem is that E85 burns at the same compression ratio as E10. I’m not sure how an engine could be set up for variable compression ratios.”
I think the most practical way to accomplish this would be with variable valve timing. You could have the “stock” cam actuation (for high octane), then a low octane ramp that dumped the effective compression down a number or two. (Or, for a turbo, just a variable wastegate.)
I think that the parasitic losses of the cam setup, their need for anti-wear additives (and high sulfated ash), and the success of VVT so far are all reasons I predict valves will soon be actuated by something other that camshafts. Whether that’s pneumatic, hydraulic, or “other,” I dunno. Probably cams will remain as a “fallback” in case the ECU throws a fit for a while.
Mazda’s using 14:1 on regular gas, so going to 15:1 won’t help much.
I think any flex fuel car can run on E85 through e100. Because alcohol power cars would struggle in colder areas, gasoline is needed to help them start. Cars with pure ethanol make poor getaway cars withou a little gasoline. Other them that, I believe with little or no adjustments, they can run of methanol too. And, guys with prostate issues can keep them going indefinitely as well.
@the_same_mountainbike, maybe the corruption is in the corn belt since they are the ones getting the benefit. OTOH, we all had a chance to disagree with the E85 thing. And we could all make it clear to our elected representatives that we don’t like it now. I’m not sure how having it available in the Midwest hurts me since E85 isn’t available where I live. We need E10 or some other octane enhanced gasoline, and E10 seems to be the most environmentally friendly alternative.
@texases, if Mazda uses 14:1 with E10, I wonder what compression ration would be needed for straight ethanol.
IMHO the corruption is in Washington DC. The beneficiaries, the ethanol producers and the agricultural conglomerates, spend countless millions on lobbying the legislators to get federal regulations passed that benefit them, very often in the form of subsidies by virtue of tax relief. Heck, lobbyists even WRITE many of the laws that then get given to legislators to introduce.
They lobby your legislators, too. That means the corruption is in your back yard.