@dagosa SOME modern cars are flex-fuel already, and it will say so on the back of the trunk or hatch. I’ve seen some GM and Ford models like that. Don’t assume any other car is built that way.
Some years back, when GM and Ford could not meet the fuel efficiency standard, they wanted credits for flex fuel cars and have them exempted from the CAFE figure. Never mind that these fuels were not generally available. So the EPA basically laugheds them out of the office. All the flex fuel cars I saw so far were all in the gas guzzler category.
@tesases, I always thought the fight against E15 was coming from the American Motorcyclist Association (because of all the old bikes on the road), boat owners, and antique/classic car enthusiasts. Which car makers are protesting the use of E15? Surely it’s not the ones selling flex fuel vehicles. The threat of E15 is probably driving the sales of flex fuel vehicles right now.
"E15 permeates and damages parts made of rubber, plastic, metal, and other materials in engines not specially sealed to allow the use of higher ethanol blends. All automakers certify their vehicles for E10. Some automakers certify their vehicles for E15 use, but many don’t.
Chrysler Group LLC, Toyota Motor Corp. (TYO:7203), Nissan Motor Comp., Ltd. (TYO:7201), Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW), and Volkswagen AG (ETR:VOW) all warn customers not to use E15, saying it will void their warranty. No ATV or motorcycle manufacturer in the U.S. currently approves of E15 use, according to The Detroit News – using E15 in any standard motorcycle will void its warranty.
The nation’s largest travel organization, AAA, has already warned that the results of allowing E15 to be sold at the pump will be disastrous – millions of Americans may have their vehicles damaged and warranties voided. AAA President and CEO Robert Darbelnet, comments, “AAA believes it is both premature and irresponsible to sell E15 to consumers while these issues remain unresolved.”"
E15 is a bigger problem in my mind then e85 as far as most car drivers are concerned. It leaves owners in limbo with the cars they have now whose warranties are affected by it’s use. At least with e85, you know exactly where you stand. You can buy a flex fuel car, or not, look into having it converted or not. Flex fuels can be sold in separate distribution while e15 will sit there right next to e10 or worse substituted and theoretically, your warranty is invalidated by a mistake because I didn’t see e15 ? As it sits now, I feel most drivers looking at their manuals would feel they need to have a flex fuel car to use e15. Maybe that’s someone’s warped idea of moving up.
What I fear is, automakers will some how come out and say…,".everyone’s car can run on e15 as they are." Wouldn’t that breed a lot of confidence in the system. Right now, it’s a major circle J with everyone trying to get a piece of the action…from our pocket books.
I don’t see savings because fuel is priced by supply and demand and everyone will want their cut. Heck, we already export gasoline. WTH we doing crippling small engines ! My lawn mower, motorized tools anhd outboards all have warranties invalidated if appicable by the use of e15. Whom I vote for in the next election will be determined by where they stand on this issue. It affects our pocketbooks more then many think.
Yep, the ethanol craze was born at a time we thought US oil and gas production was going nowhere but down. Now that’s turned around, but the ethanol mandates haven’t.
There is a good argument to be made for that…and mandate making all vehicles flex fuel. But some one has to control fuel quality if every Tom, Dick and Harry can distill their own income.
I agree with everything everyone opposing E15 has said, but if we’re already putting E10 in our cars, will another 5% ethanol make a drastic difference? Over the life of a car, will it really result in perceptible damage?
One big problem is small engine stuff. They’re already jetted way lean to comply with the latest EPA rules; running 15% hooch can make it dangerously so.
@Same The is no such thing as a free market when it comes to the energy we use to power cars. When is the last time you had any choice for energy other then a paltry few cents for one gasoline brand over another ? You have no choice from one energy source to another unless you own or have access to a petro free car.
Well stated, db. With our permission, I may put this to music… only for my own entertainment, you understand.
Oblivion, yes the extra 5% does make a difference. Testing has shown that 10% is the maximum ethanol mix that non-flex vehicles will tolerate without operating problems.
Ethanol, even at 10% concentration in gasoline, will cause problems. Of course newer vehicles can handle it better than the old ones. The damage is more obvious and more common on small engines with outboards, lawn equipment and motorcycles taking a costly beating. I have rebuilt motorcycle carburetors that had rubber diaphrams partially emulsified and outboard fuel systems gummed up from the tank to the reed valves. My 20 year old Stihl chainsaw worked without fail until I inadvertantly filled it with E10. The following spring the fuel pickup was a gummy string and the carburetor was full of shellac like coating that was difficult to remove. That same fuel was in my weed-eater, leaf blower, emergency generator and 3 lawn mowers.
The costly option of steady diet of Trufuel is fine for string trimmers/ brush cutters , occasionally used chain saws and the like, but there is no solution for outboards, snow blowers, small outboards and lawn mowers other then draining and running on Trufuel before storage. Converted larger Outboard over to ethanol compliant EFI , but it sure is job security for small engine repair. The bane of our existence living in the woods is ethanol second only to ticks.
“the market has spoken” ? Cool rant but it has little effect. Why is our gas still lased with this crap and e85 sneaking into our lives when there are better and simpler temporary solutions, like lpg and nat gas. The market has done nothing to curtail the problems of ethanol. It is politics plain and simple with vast unrestricted funds flowing into politics from energy companies. You need vehicles and motors that run on fuels other then petro lased with ethanol so the average consumer can make a daily choice and not just yell profanities at the average polititian whose pockets are co lined with funds from petro and ethanol producers. Delaying e15 has nothing to do with market pressures; it has to do with your vote come election time.
I choose expensive propane when ever I can but, but the conversion is expensive. The real flex fuel vehicle is not this temporary petro car solution, it’s the electric motor. But again, you need money to get in the game…free choice and market pressures only exists in the pocket books of those who can afford it. Go to the average pump…where is the free market ?
I agree with everything everyone opposing E15 has said, but if we're already putting E10 in our cars, will another 5% ethanol make a drastic difference?
That’s a 50% increase in Ethanol. Yea it could make a HUGE difference.
It makes a darn big difference to automakers as far as your warranty is concerned. People can argue all they want about cars " only " requiring 5% more, but from the time you use it, you are on your own for any related repairs for the rest of your cars life. That goes for all other motors you use it in too.