Simple physics states, that you cannot get more energy out of something over the enregy that was put in.
Tester
But, simple physics also says that some additives (ethanol) increase the octane rating and has the potential to allow the motor to extract more energy out of a given fuel for it’s intended purpose, propulsion.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_e85.html
True.
But for that engine to use that fuel and reap the energy from that fuel it has to use a lot of that fuel.
You don’t want to lean out an alcohol dragster.
Tester
There is no cost advantage in using E85 for you. Whatever you gain in $/gallon will be more than lost in lower gas mileage. E85 only makes sense if you are selling it; never when you buy it.
Not according to those who are hiping it up.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_benefits.html
According to them, E85 capable cars do extract similar mpgs. But of course, they are paid to say that . I Am only giving the other side of the argument…not that I agree with it’s use. But, I am against it for different reasons. Ethanol has been the single biggest expense to deal with by far in all my small motors. It has cost me thousands, yes thousands having to replace carbs and buy new outboard motors (two of them) as well as new lawn mower, new propane generator for home backup because of gas storage etc. I have easily lost two years of cruising the Caribbean because of that !$&:/$ ethanol. But, it isn’t for any mileage loss fear or loss of food stuffs that I hate it. I will leave that for the rest of you to spearhead.
@dagosa - Anyone that says that E85 will yield similar mpgs to E10 on a current production car is wrong, pure and simple. A 30% drop is typical. Even with an ethanol-only engine, with a higher compression ratio, I’d be really surprised if it could close that gap. Modern gas engines are running 14:1 compression ratios already on E10, not much higher they’d want to go.
And those links about flexfuel engines contained nothing factual about being able to use E85 in non-flex fuel cars. Might it work? Maybe, but that’s a $5,000 (or more) gamble, for no good reason.
@texases. Well perhaps they are wrong. I just gave you an alternate point of view and please read, “they were paid to say so” (it was tongue in cheek ) when have you ever know the govt. to be wrong ? 
But, to the main point.
E85 is considered an alternate fuel, not just an “increase in the use of ethanol” . At presents, only those cars designated “flex fuel” are designed to handle alternate fuels. That means that any car designated to handle e85 is by definition, a flex fuel car( a car with added sensors to read content and software to adjust)
When a manufacturer tells you your car can handle e85, that does not automatically make the warranty valid for it’s use. The cars have to be certifide. That was my point from the beginning and why I said OP should not use e85. It was not that the car was not capable, as many cars are now and his may be. It is that it voids the warranty.( like you, perhaps the same reason) Car makers started making many cars that way for two reasons. To provide flex fuel vehicles where needed, especially in other areas, and to have a test bed ready if the local politics suddenly gave them a mandate to provide cars in high sales areas…like California. These cars that are e85 ready are just as flex fuel as the ones designated and there are many many many out there. Having a sticker for being “flex fuel” is the only thing they lack.
I have never seen a flex fuel capable vehicle that wasn’t labeled as a flex fuel vehicle. Can you give an example?
Every flex fuel vehicle that I have worked on had injectors and other fuel system components colored green to differentiate the parts from stanard fuel system parts. PCM calibrations are also different.
That AFDC link states that fuel consumption is greater using E85.
A gallon of ethanol contains less energy than a gallon of gasoline. The result is lower fuel economy than a gallon of gasoline.
I tend to agree with Nevada
Manufacturers are proud to label their vehicles flex fuel capable
If a vehicle is flex fuel capable, the manufacturer will make sure it gets certified and labeled as such. The car will have the flex fuel badge on the trunk lid or the fender. The fuel cap will say E85, and they’re often yellow.
I know for a fact that flex fuel vehicles have more robust fuel systems, front to back. The pump, lines and injectors are beefed up to handle that corrosive crap. And the PCM is programmed to be able to recognize the crap, and make the necessary adjustments.
Every fool knows E85 has less energy. Anybody telling you otherwise is probably directly connected to the ethanol industry.
Flex fuel vehicles haven’t always carried an outside badge. Most built in the last seven years, since the modern “fuel awareness” era have an emblem on the back.
In 1998 most new 3.3L Grand Caravans that arrived at the dealer I was working at were flex fuel but had no exterior label. Flex fuel was the answer to the question that nobody asked, the only reason they are produced is to raise the CAFE average. A flex fuel badge at that time might have been indicated an unnecessary complication and turned away a buyer. A look at the fuel cap, label on the fuel door, the monroney and under the hood indicated they were flex fuel vehicles.
“I know for a fact that flex fuel vehicles have more more robust fuel systems…beefed up to handle this crap” @db4690 …true but. But according to our friendly EPA;
All cars made since the mid 1990s are mandated to handle ethanhol. The difference being, flex fuel cars can be certifide if they have a kit with sensors that were installed for the ethanol content level and a change in the soft ware to manage it. Without the kits, continued use of ethanhol will cause damage. But, It is a one hour job. Many have been as being certified though installing the kits is part of the certification process with the manufacturer. It is also mandated that once these kits are installed, they should still be certified and covered under warranty. Because states have different certification regulations and car companies are mandated both to provide EPA approved kits themselves and allow after market producers to do same. This has been true for ALL CARS PRODUCE since the mid 1990s. Now, a qualified mechanic can tell if these kits have been installed but the average consumer cannot. There are millions of these cars on the road already capable and every car can still be converted with an EPA approved Kit installation. (ie, become certified.) Some after market installers claim it takes less then an hour. Do the kits come with a badge and a different labeled fuel cap and a label to affix to the car and have they all been ? They certainly don’t come with a different owners manual. That’s the genesis of “call the manufacturer but I still would not use e85” comment. WTH are you guys disagreeing with ? bottom line, any modern car can be made certifide in an hour’s work. Again, that’s the govt. talking and when have they ever lied to us ?
I think I am being more careful then you guys…when I say, I still wouldn’t use e85, even if the manufacturer says it is OK.
" I have never seen Flex fuel vehicle that wasn’t labeled as one. Can you give an example? "
I think you just answered your own question…in your next post. There are many many others too.
@dagosa - I guess my question is - how do you know all these details about what is required for a car to handle E85, and that most all cars have that equipment?
@texases
My contention is, our friendly, trusted govt. posts, clearly states that cars can handle ethanol since the mid 90’s. To me, that includes all fuel contact lines and distribution, not included in the kits. Now their definition of handle may not be the same as ours, but I guess it means, they only need to be certifide. Part of the process of getting it certifide is having a kit ( of sensors and software) installed by a dealer or after market installer with an EPA approved kit. I just assume that our trusted EPA would never lie to us (sarcasm) when they say, other then the kit needed for certification, every other piece of equipment has been installed. That’s why I say, if your car is unlabeled and you call the manufacturer and they say " it’s OK", I still wouldn’t use e85. I don’t trust what has been going on since the 90’s to CYA my butt if my manual clearly states…do not use any ethanol content above 10%. I assume the certification process of adding these kits may have already started, and by law, warranties for using 170 proof alcohol in your gas is OK regardless. So, do you trust that ? Everything is in flux ! Oh, maybe the kit includes a new gas cap…that makes a late 90s car or early 2000 OK now ? Hmmm.
Handling E10 is very different from handling E85. So I wouldn’t assume that the fuel parts capable of handling E10 could handle the corrosive E85. Carmakers have been protesting that E15 will cause problems for cars that can handle E10.
And how do you know about these ‘kits’? Just wondering, first I’ve heard of them.
My contention is, our friendly, trusted govt. posts, clearly states that cars can handle ethanol since the mid 90's.
Right in the link you provided it states that all vehicles can handle 10% Ethanol, but 85% requires a different setup. From my observation - MOST vehicles are NOT setup to run E-85.
Mike, the set up is the kits…according to the EPA. When it is mandated to “handle ethanol”, I don’t see anything stipulating the content. Present .10 ethanol does not require the kits, supposedly, only a system we presently use with fuel system compatibility to ethanol in general… e85 is considered an alternate fuel with the .15 gasoline added for cold weather starting, the only difference between flex fuel cars now in the USA and Venezuela where they run 100% is that .15 mandate for cold weather. Personally, I feel more modern cars are more ethanol tolerant every year of manufacture and to varying degrees and would still not trust a certified vehicle with kit after the fact on earlier vehicles, especially OPs. Especially…with a warranty that may have run out on the fuel system !
Mike, the set up is the kits...according to the EPA. When it is mandated to "handle ethanol", I don't see anything stipulating the content.
Directly from the link you provided.
Many ask whether their vehicle will burn ethanol or E85 fuel even though it isn’t designated as a flex fuel vehicle. The answer is yes and no. All gasoline vehicles are able to operate on gasoline and ethanol blends of up to 10 percent. Most pumped gas sold in the United States has approximately that amount of ethanol to meet clean air or emissions regulations. These low percentage blends are not classified as alternative fuels. But to use E85 you must have the right engine. If your vehicle isn’t a designated Flex Fuel vehicle, check with your manufacturer as many vehicles that were made as early as 2002 have the capability to burn E85 safely.
And, that’s why I have said, do not burn e85 in your car to OP… I think I have repeated exactly what you have posted several times. ( or parts there of) E85 is classified as an alternative fuel and requires more then ethanol resistant fuel lines. My contention goes beyond what you have posted. "check with your manufacturer…as many vehicles that were made as early s 2002 have the capability to burn e85 safety. " I don’t believe that for the reasons I have stated over and over and over… Including, I feel cars are getting more ethanol resistant even without the kits and manufacturers were required to make models e85 capable with only the inclusion of the kits. If that was done, without the car being sold that way, ( and even if it was) you have no extended arranty to back you up in older cars. Car makers have an official position to cover themselves with the govt., then there is the truth.
http://www.flexfuelus.com/e85-frequently-asked-questions/
Here is a QA from a certified kit manufacturer. There are the same conflicting answers I get in the govt. postings about the economy of ethanol and it’s compatibility.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/technology_bulletin_0807.html
Please read “Regulatory Requirements” which I feel is pertinent to my opinion. Manufacturers and aftermarket kit sellers are equally guilty of this sales pitch. But, neither has the govt. done a good job of enforcing compliance when older cars 90s through early 2000s were mandated to be ethanol tolerant. They do what they can get away with and making flex fuel vehicles is one area where IMHO, you need to be really careful with older cars out of warranty. Also, continue reading, if you dare, how the process of certifying has changed, even in the last few years. There is nothing IMO, that guarantees OP of successfully using e85 in his car even if the manufacturer said so.
This is an example of where prior to 2011 was being done.