Do you want ABS

Maintenance/Repairs
41

If you fasten your seat belt there is no need for airbags. The whole point of airbags is to protect people who are too stupid to protect themselves by fastening their seat belts. Why should the rest us pay the price for those stupid people?

Actually airbags are designed to work WITH seatbelts. They are NOT designed to work stand-alone. I wear my seatbelt all the time and so does everyone who gets in my car. The airbags have been proven to help in a crash…how much I’m not sure. And I think we’re the last state that doesn’t have an adult seatbelt law.

42

What theory would you blame it on?

If the truck’s brakes would have locked down, he could have put it in 1st gear and pulled out forward, the wheels weren’t locked, but were rolling. It’s not like this was the first time he’d loaded cattle in a trailer on this truck and many other trucks. They have a backgrounding operation that usually carries 1500 to 2000 head at any one time. Yes, it was a combination of a lot of things that set up the situation, but if the ABS system hadn’t been there, I’m sure it wouldn’t have happened.

Skipper

43

What theory would you blame it on?

The truck was aimed up hill with the trailer aimed down hill. When he started it the truck started rolling backwards because the ABS was reading pressure and was set to pump long before he got enough pressure on the brakes to hold the load.

Since I can’t make any sense out of the “ABS was reading pressure . . .” sentence I’m not sure. My first question is, wasn’t there a parking brake? Was it set? If not, why not? In car or truck the parking brake should stay set until you are in gear. I also usually start a manual transmission in gear with the clutch depressed. Without having been there and knowing a lot more about the situation I can’t say what happened, but I do know I hear a lot of people blame ABS brakes for things that really aren’t an ABS problem.

44

IF people would ( as airplane pilots do ) really learn the machine ! Learn how it works AND how it doesn’t work.

That’s NOT going to happen. And I don’t expect people to.

I had the opportunity when I was young and broke. I learned out of necessity. If I didn’t have the opportunity when I was young there is no way I’d have learned. Just don’t have the time. Between work (60+ hours/week), family…home…there just isn’t enough time in the day to learn that skill.

45

I don’t personally like ABS, but then I’ve had 40 years of experience driving in climates with real winters. I have ABS on my current car.

I think it should be an option. And personally I think the money is better spent on better tires, as you suggested.

However, I realize that there are lots of newbies out there. Perhaps it really does help them not lose control.

46

Good point about the newbies, but I would rather see them spend money on an emergency driving class than more gimmicks. Actually knowing how to drive is much more valuable than any of this stuff. I have no problem with ABS, etc. being available as an option for people who think they need it; personally, I think I’ll just refrain from crashing into things.

47

The early systems read the pressure in the hydraulic system and the computer controls determined the amount of pressure being applied from his foot on the brake pedal according to the computer should have locked the wheels. It failed to take into account he had 14000 pounds of cattle and trailer on the back of the truck.

Why would the parking brake be set with him getting ready to take off, besides, parking brakes on trucks don’t work in reverse to start with. Secondly, a parking brake is so small that it wouldn’t have a prayer of handling that kind of weight to start with.

I’ve driven manual trannys in trucks for years and real close to a million miles. I have never started a truck in gear that’s ridiculous.

I’m not talking about ABS on a car, I’m talking about ABS on pickups, specifically heavy duty 3/4 and 1 ton pickups. I was pointing out how they act with a load v’s the way regular brakes handle with a load. There’s a big difference in stopping a 2500 lb car and a 6000 lb truck with a 10,000 lb trailer behind it or for that matter 4500 lbs in the bed of the truck.

Skipper

48

hey wat i want to know is wat in the h**l did people do 20 or 30 years ago, or however long ago they invented these things, but wat did they do before they had them, sure ther was still accidents, but ther is STILL accidents because of people who slide through an intersection, ABS or not.the only reason they had to come up with ABS is because people are stupid, if people just would learn that when the white stuff is on the ground that means it is slippery, and u cant stop in 6 feet like everyone seems to do in summer wether u hav ABS or not. so just smarten up and all will be fine.

49

You could leave your belt unfastened too since you will not be crashing into things. There might be a problem, however, if I hit you and your body comes through my windshield.

50

… and I might get hit by lightning too. I do usually wear a seat belt, if I’m going any distance, but I’m certainly not losing any sleep over the fact that none of my cars have air-bags. My motorcycle doesn’t have an air-bag either, how will I ever survive?

51

" However, I realize that there are lots of newbies out there. Perhaps it really does help them not lose control. "

As I listen to this debate, somewhere we get the impression that if we do everything right, have enough experience, then we will never need ABS because we are somehow, a superior driver. As the victim of a car/deer collision that could have been much worse had I not had ABS; for the life of me, I can’t find anything I could have done differently.

I resent that those of you who may have never had a serious accident feel that they all are preventable and are immune from them. As an ex police officer who has investigated accidents, I can tell you that many times, lives are saved by the newer safety devices (incl. ABS) of experienced and safe drivers, who are not NEWBEES.

A drunk driver seldom picks out a “deserving” motorist.

52

I once totaled a 914 by hitting a deer (and a very large tree) while driving much too fast and not wearing seat belts; I walked away a little sore. Maybe ABS would have helped, but I doubt it.

I recently avoided hitting a deer diving my 82 benz, I was able to stop in time by almost locking the brakes (modulating at the verge of lockup), I probably would have hit it in an ABS equipped car that would have prevented any wheel lock. An air-bag equipped car with ABS would have been a real PITA.

I’ve bent up a few cars and motorcycles, and I may bend a few more in the next 30-40 years if I’m unlucky enough. I’ll take my chances with my ability over any of these gadgets. I don’t think I’m immune to anything, but I don’t like the cost/benefit of this stuff so I’m not going to own it. If it makes you feel better, you should use it; but I’ll pass.

53

Next time I go driving I’m leaving my cell phone at home. That way, I’ll be a more careful driver and be sure not to get into any accidents that force me to have to call 911. After all, the fewer safety features in cars, the more careful the driver, right?

54

Not me, I make most of my phone calls while driving.

55

You are either very lucky or naive as to when and how your ABS works.
Good tires are important, and sure, you can possibly stop a car successfully in an emergency without ABS. But all things equal, I would MUCH rather hit the brakes at 65 mph on an ABS vehicle than not…and know that I will stop in the lane I started in, rather than spin and wander all over, and off the road. Do you really think good tires alone will prevent that?

I used to practice skid stops on ice and in empty parking lots; turning the wheel opposite of the skid and such. It can be done…are you that good that you know you can turn the wheel in the right microsecond during an emergency?
I know I can, and I would still choose ABS.

56

“I’ve bent up a few cars and motorcycles, and I may bend a few more in the next 30-40 years if I’m unlucky enough.”

As an ex cyclist and have friends that still are, the consensus is that ABS on a cycle is probably MORE valuable than on a car. One in particular traded his not too old BMW in for a newer model that offered ABS loosing $$$$$ in the deal…and he’s a cheap skate. To each his own.

57

If I ever think I need ABS on my bike, I will know it’s time for me to become an ex-biker (hopefully, that won’t happen in my lifetime).

58

No no no no no.

Unless he had AIR BRAKES on a pickup truck, there is nothing between the brake pedal and the brake caliper pistons and wheel cylinders except brake lines, and brake fluid.

The way an ABS system is routed is that the brake pedal pushes a rod into the back of the master cylinder.
The rubber seals in the master cylinder displaces brake fluid, and pushes it into the brake lines.
The brake lines then run through a combination box that balances the pressure for the front to rear bias, and at the same time is the box that has the actuators for the ABS function.
From there, the lines run to each wheel, feeding either a brake caliper (disc) or a wheel cylinder (drums).

Now, the way ABS functions is that the actuators in the ABS box are in a closed state.
Depending on the system, there is either one actuator per wheel, or a pair for the front, and a pair for the rear.

Under normal circumstances, when ABS function is not needed, the actuators are closed.
All the pressure goes directly to the calipers or wheel cylinders.

When the ABS computer senses that one tire is slowing down faster than the rest of the tires, then it opens that one valve long enough to make that tire slow down at the same rate as all the other tires. When the tire is slowed down enough, it closes the actuator, and brake fluid stops bleeding off.

Most ABS systems do not actuate when the vehicle is rolling backwards.
Your friend should have had full braking power.

Most ABS systems don’t actuate under a certain speed.
Your friend should have had full braking power.

Now, I don’t understand several things.

If it was a manual transmission truck, and was parked, one of two things had to have been in play if the truck was on a hill:

It was shut off with the truck in gear, and no parking brake.
It was shut off in neutral, with the parking brake.

Since it was on a hill, it has to have been in one of those two states.
If it was in neutral, without the parking brake, it would have rolled away.

Now, if it was in gear, without the parking brake, as soon as your friend hit the clutch to go and start the truck, it would have started to roll. In this case, backwards, as that is where the heavier load was.

Now, depending on the brake system for the trailer, hitting the brakes would have either done nothing with a combo that was going backwards (surge brakes), or should have done something (electronic).

Surge brakes work when the towing vehicle applies the brakes.
The trailer pushes forward against the TV.
There is a rod in the trailer tongue that pushes into the brake MC for the trailer, and activates the brakes.
If the trailer was going backwards with this type of braking system, then there was nothing your friend could have done to activate the trailers brakes. Chances are his truck left brake marks the whole way back from the truck’s system not being powerful enough to hold the trailer on a hill.

If it was an electronic brake system, the system relies on an electronic signal to turn on the trailer brakes. If the truck was still off, and was rolling backwards, there might not have been that electronic signal, so no trailer brakes.

I’m calling user error for the accident, not ABS failure.

BC.

59

Craig, is that you in the next lane over? I’m waving at you. :stuck_out_tongue:

60

The early systems read the pressure in the hydraulic system and the computer controls determined the amount of pressure being applied from his foot on the brake pedal according to the computer should have locked the wheels. It failed to take into account he had 14000 pounds of cattle and trailer on the back of the truck.

That is not how an ABS system, any ABS system, works.

I won’t repeat it all, but I’ll just say Bladecutter covered pretty much everything I was thinking.

And you are really telling me you never, not once, got in a truck that was in gear, stepped on the clutch and started it? You always put it in neutral first? Very odd.