On the subject of “common sense”, there are two ways to not have common sense. One is not recognizing when a situation is dangerous. The other is not recognizing when something is not dangerous. The people who call in the bomb squad and suspend a kid from school for bringing a toy cap gun to school are just as devoid of common sense as are the people who smoke in the bilge of a boat with gas tanks around them.
Luckily, my mom had a sense of balance and proportion.
“What are you kids doing in there?”
“We’re making gunpowder.”
“You need to do that outside!”
I don't think this is the right forum for new and innovative ideas.
We should go back to carburetors. All this new technology is too scary and will be too costly.
I will now smash my computer and smart phone and will be replacing it with a rotary land line phone and a Rolodex because its cheaper and not as complex so there is less to break and its not as scary as electronic devices.
EFI actually made cars simpler. Remember the plumber’s nightmare of vacuum hoses, dashpots, solenoids of the last of the emission compliant carburetors?
On my present motorcycle, not having EFI was a deal breaker, so was rims that couldn’t use tubeless tires. It’s not that we are scared of new technology or better ways of doing things, it’s that we recognize when something is a great step sideways in the advance of technology. Any damn fool can add even more complexity to a already overly complex Rube Goldberg contraption. Genius is knowing when to stop, what to leave off.
I’m sure a lot of people view the BMW K-1600 with its six cylinder engine and fly by wire controls as the ultimate in touring motorcycles. With a msrp of $25k and weighing nearly 800 pounds and getting maybe 30-35 mpg on Premium fuel, I say it completely misses the whole point of a motorcycle. An economical alternative to a car. That’s not progress, that’s bloat.
On a car, sure, feedback carbs were dreadful–but on a MC, you still can run a fairly straightforward CV sidedraft carb. Additionally, the traditional location of the fuel tank means no need for a fuel pump…EFI is MORE complicated for that, and introduces an additional single-point failure mode.
I fondly remember my 'CB350–air cooled, twin cylinder, carb’d–and wonder why there is any need for a more complicated motorcycle than that. KISS principle, baby!
Technically, my motorcycle (Kawasaki Ninja 300) has DFI, not EFI. Digital fuel injection is an “open loop” system that doesn’t use oxygen sensors in the exhaust.
I agree that CV carbs worked very well. My biggest issue with them is that they slowly wear rich as the miles stack up. The needle jet and the tapered jet needles that go up and down with the slide control fuel mixture at midrange cruising rpm and throttle opening. This gradually makes the bike’s gas mileage go sour. The only cure is to replace those parts (expensive). On the ZRX1200 that I used to own, I swear that when the factory builds those bikes, they start with the carbs and assemble the bike around them. It’s an all day job to remove them, make repairs or changes, and then it’s another all day job to put the carbs back in to see if you fixed the issue.
The Ninja 300 really reminds me of a well tuned Honda CB350. A really sweet bike, only I don’t think anyone ever got 70-75 mpg with a old school CB350.
If you are running a bike at a race track, what would you rather do, take carbs apart to change jets, needles, and float level, or download a new fuel injection map into the ECU from your laptop?
Yes @Texases. But the motorcycle 2 strokes use the crankcase as a blower and lubricate the engine by blending oil with the fuel. The Detroit 2 stroke engines used belt driven blowers and crankcase lubrication. They had cam driven exhaust valves.
Oh, please. Don’t go back to carbs in cars. It was routine for me to dismantle the carb on a ford, the last carb car I had, and clean and adjust the darn thing every two to three months…then put on a new gasket and re tighten the spacer under near which was the most awkward job…all, holding my breath, worrying I didn’t drop anything down the intake manifold.
As soon as EFI became affordable ( if you call $5k affordable) on mid power outboards, I ran out and bought one behind my wife’s back. It starts with the turn of the key every time, no choke, no idle control and runs like a car with no hesitation, no yearly cleaning…no fuss.
If I hear anyone campaign for carbs back in cars…" Them is big time fighten words" …
The only thing better then EFI in Ice motors, convert to propane or compressed Nat gas and install a regulator. That would be a next step after these motors IMHO.
I say it completely misses the whole point of a motorcycle. An economical alternative to a car
I’ve addressed this point you made before. Not for everyone. The whole point of a motorcycle for me is enjoyment. Fuel efficiency isn’t even on the radar. In fact, my “daily” rider gets worse fuel economy than my Camry…
Why EFI on a bike? Simple, it’s way less susceptible to fuel aging than a carb. And for people who ride them seasonally and then have many bad weather days during the short riding season that make riding no fun, that can be a big issue. I just recently had to R&R my carbs AGAIN for this reason. And they are tucked in so bad it is a very labor intensive and frustrating job. My EFI vehicles (in terms of bikes and ATVs) have never given me one iota of problems in this regard (knock on wood).
I’m looking forward to EFI on lawnmowers.
Since the ECU that controls fuel injection systems has no moving parts, it’s actually simpler mechanically than carbs are.
Fuel injection has been around since at least WWII where most of the Luftwaffe aircraft used fuel injection, and possibly earlier. However, affordable, reliable, and powerful digital micro-processors is the enabling technology that made fuel injection more practical than carburetors, particularly carburetors capable of meeting stringent clean air standards.
My fuel injected motorcycle starts up instantly with the punch of a button and can be ridden off immediately without stalling or hesitation, no choke to fiddle with. The only thing that betrays the fact that the engine is not completely warmed up is a somewhat fast idle. It can deliver a good gas mileage getting stoichiometric fuel/air mixture without drivability problems, flat spots, etc. It doesn’t go lean in cold weather and rich in hot weather. It doesn’t go rich on me if I ride up in the mountains. I’d have to be nuts to go back to carbs.
I learned how to use this computer, I can also learn how to troubleshoot EFI.
“If YOU are running a bike at a race track, what would you rather do, take carbs apart to change jets, needles, and float level, or download a new fuel injection map into the ECU from your laptop?”
[Emphasis added]
Gee, me? Well I tend to believe “beyond here, there be monsters” is printed on every black box chock full of silicon…and I intrinsically distrust electronic systems I can’t “reverse-engineer” with a multimeter and a wiring schematic.
So…well, I’d have no choice if I were racing, right? Gotta be competitive… But in my motorcycling for pleasure, keep it as bone simple as physics and the law allows.
One of the problems with those good old simple carburetors is that on a lot of motorcycles, they were so difficult to get to that a stuck float needle or something similar may just as well be a fried ECU when you are in the middle of nowhere.
I could accept carbs again provided they are on a bike where the carb or carbs are readily accessible, like the BMW R90/6 I once owned. You didn’t even need a screw driver to drop the float bowl, it was held on by a wire bail that you just pushed aside.
The good news on that bike was that maintenance was easy.
The bad news was it needed constant maintenance, throttle synch, point adjustment, etc.
I would think that mechenically operated systesm went by the wayside due to much manitnenance needed, durabillity issues and overall perfrmance. ECU operated units are way more reliable.
@1977Cutlassjones_169686 Mr. Cutlass , could you please look at the right side of your screen for the thread start and last post dates .
This one has been inactive for 6 years.
Sorry, i didnt notice that, but still why is relevant? If it is a topic of interest we are still not to respond in any way if it seems outdated? Not trying to be an a$$, but How long before something cant be repsonded to?
If it piquets your interest, respond to it. You aren’t the first to do this. The site masters seem to encourage this by displaying past posts that might be related to a new subject.
I was looking into direct injection and got caught up in the comments and didn’t really notice the dates. I haven’t found much in direct injection yet.
