What is a simple job for me, asemaster, Nevada, bp, tester etc may not be a simple job for you or a C tech…
How about rebuilding a carb, do you want to pay Mr George $10 an hour and it take him 2 weeks (80 hours, yes I know it didn’t take 80 hours) to rebuild it, or tester $50 an hour and he charges book labor of 2 hours even if he can do it in 45 minutes???
a good service will not call the customer too soon, if the mechanic gets done with the job very quickly and he is definitely getting paid the full amount, so to speak
For example, if a customer is paying 6 hrs labor and the very experienced mechanic gets done in 2 hours, don’t call the customer in 2 hours . . . wait until at least 4 hours have elapsed, imo
It avoids many of these situations some of you guys think are unfair to the customer
I’ve heard all this stuff before, and it’s always the mechanic holding the bag in the end
Customer says we don’t want to pay you the full book time because you did it faster
Warranty says we’re not paying you 6hrs because you did it in less than 1/2 the time
Mechanic takes 6hrs to do a job because it’s a new car and he’s the first to ever do the job, partially due to limited information, but book time is only 3hrs, so he only gets those 3hrs
book time for module reflash is 0.2hrs, but if you add up the time to get the car, flash the module, make sure it’s still working, put the car away, enter your story in the system, and now it’s close to 1hr, . . . but you better believe you’re still only getting 0.2hrs
Yeah, the pattern is always the same . . . the consistent loser is always the mechanic
And it’s one of the reasons I’m now a public employee and not a flat-rate mechanic. I work my butt off, get my 9hrs/day . . . 9/80 schedule . . . fully well knowing I’d very often clobber flat rate times, because I remain curious and look them up
Just my perspective but if that was the expected price for the job, I would be thrilled to have the master tech working on my car versus some line jockey.
The fact he got the job done in 15 minutes would also be a bonus because:
I’m sitting there and my time is worth a lot to me. Job done right in less than typical time, I’m happy to pay that bill…
Nope, never gonna happen that way.
“Hello Mr. Rainflurry. It looks like replacing your headlamp is a $200 job and can take about an hour. My shop foreman is quite experienced and should be able to do it faster, would you like to wait while I see if he’s available?” You’ve now been quoted a price and a timeframe for a job, it’s all your decision now.
I’ve taken great effort to avoid “5:00 shock” when it comes to the final total. The best phone calls I make are the ones that say “We’ve got your car finished on budget and ahead of schedule.”
There’s a great deal I don’t understand. Attorney A writes a contract in 4 hours and attorney B writes the same contract in 2 hours. Why does the Customer pay twice the price for A’s contract? What makes it more valuable? Why is B selling his contract for half of what it’s worth? What’s wrong with it that it’s so cheap?
Exactly. If you hire a roofer to put a new roof on your house and he says it’s going to cost $8000 and take 4 days, you don’t offer to pay him $6000 when he gets it done in 3.
If it’s two different firms, then it doesn’t matter. The price is the price. Also, I’m sure thy don’t create a new contract for every client. There is surely a base document that they modify for the client’s needs. That’s how we used to work writing a request for quote (RFQ). As a subsystem lead on a new program, I’d use an existing RFQ and modify it for the new project. It would go to the prospective vendors and they would comment. We would modify our document if needed and eventually end up with a purchase contract. I imagine law firms do something like that too.
Of course it’s not going to happen because you aren’t going to disclose to your customer that it only took 15 minutes. Paying techs flat rate makes you have to play this game. If you owe your tech 1 hour labor for replacing a headlight bulb, you can’t charge your customer 15 minutes.
You see the problem right? If you think I’m in left field on this, we’re on Car Talk Community after all and Tom and Ray did it the way I propose (charging your customer actual time):
TOM: In our shop, we only use the book to give our customers estimates. Then we charge them for the actual time we spend working on their car. And the vast majority of the time, we do jobs faster than the book predicts.
RAY: Our customers seem to prefer this method. Even if, once in a while, we run into a frozen bolt or something that makes a job take longer than the book predicts, they seem to prefer paying for work they’re actually getting.
You like to ask leading questions, don’t you? Who said A’s contract is twice the price and that B is selling it for half of what it’s worth? Attorney’s bill at vastly different hourly rates and they don’t charge 10 hours for 6 hours of work.
I have had two roofs replaced and the estimates I’ve seen weren’t quoted with a specific time frame like that.
If auto repair shops were to charge only actual time spent on a job, it seems there would be little incentive for a mechanic to be efficient and get the job done quickly
After all, if I can do ball joints in 3 hours and be sweating and out of breath, then why don’t I just do it in 5 hours and not even break a sweat, knowing I’ll be collecting 5 hours of pay . . . versus doing it in 3, saving the customer money, collecting less pay, but maybe I’ve messed up my back even worse than it already is . . . ?!
I understand that argument, but then what is the incentive of every straight salary or hourly worker in this country to work hard and efficient and do a good job? Working hard and efficient is the right thing to do and leads to pay raises and promotions (if you want). Management needs to figure out why certain employees underperform and help them get better. Flat rate promotes a lazy management style IMO.
How are you saving the customer anything? That’s my issue with flat rate. The customer is going to pay book time regardless, right? That’s what ASE and I have been “discussing”. I believe he is of the opinion that the customer should pay book time regardless of how long the repair takes. Of course that’s how he needs to view it - his techs are paid flat rate. If a good tech makes $50/hr flat rate, and the headlight bulb replacement is 1.0 hr., then he owes his tech $50 regardless of how long it takes to complete the repair. Therefore, if the repair takes 15 minutes, he can’t also charge the customer $50 or he loses money. So, he needs to quote the job at $200. But, the shop’s labor rate is $200/hr. Is the customer aware that $200/hr. means $200/hr. book time and not $200/hr. actual time?
I understand there’s not a right and wrong way to do this, I just think flat rate has been designed for the benefit of the shop and sold to the techs as a way to incentivize production.
I hear you there. My condolences. I was an ASE master tech in my 20s (OBD-I days!) but knew my back couldn’t take it. Loved the work but knew I wasn’t going to be able to do it long.
Interesting discussion on business practices. But if I get charged $200 for a job done, I have no idea, don’t care, and none of my business what the mechanic got paid. They could just be paid a staight hourly wage like most other workers.
Sure I can and will. How the mechanic gets paid is entirely irrelevant here. It’s about transparency, consistency, and yes, honesty. I tell you up front what the shop is going to do to your car, what the price will be, and that it will take between 15 minutes and an hour. That needs to be the same for every 2019 Silverado (for example) headlight. Then the choice is up to you whether we do the repair.
Real life example…I used to charge 2 hours labor for a rear brake job. Replace shoes, cylinders, hardware, turn drums, flush fluid. Charlie would spend over 3 hours on this job and Larry would have it done in 1. Would you be happy paying twice as much for your brake job simply because the tech working on it moves slowly? What kind of business practice is that?
So you’re OK with paying $8000 for a new roof no matter how long it takes, but not OK with paying $200 for a new headlight no matter now long it takes?
The way I read this, you’re saying that your attorney can do 4 hours of work in 2 hours. Or, the other attorney takes 4 hours to do a 2 hour job. Either way, if the work is identical and the final product is a contract you’re happy with, shouldn’t the price be the same?
You just said that one attorney will spend (and bill for) 4 hours drafting a contract that should take 2 hours. Attorneys bill at hourly rates, mechanics don’t. You’re the shop, I’m the customer. I need a new timing chain. You use your labor guide, your experience, your cashflow requirements, to determine how much you want to charge me. That process needs to be methodical, consistent, and repeatable. How many labor hours are involved is none of my business. The repair order will show a labor charge of $800, not a labor charge of 4 hours.
It doesn’t matter. The price is the price no matter how I determine it. I have no idea how Gino’s Pasta Palace comes up with $28.95 for chicken parmesan and I don’t really care. If I want it I’ll buy it, if not I won’t. It’s that simple.
sealed beams should still be required.
As with any profession, if I want to advance in my career, I’ll spend to invest in both training and tools needed to do my job more effectively.
If that investment means I can now do a 1-hour repair in 15 minutes, then I expect to be paid for the full hour.
We still have several very similar looking trucks in our fleet
The “light output” is absolutely pathetic, especially if it’s dark outside
On the other hand, when you buy a pizza, you have little idea what the pizza maker was paid or how long they worked on your pizza.
Bottom line every business needs to charge to stay in business with whatever method they use. Staff also need to be paid for them to keep working.
a sealed beam could incorporate any element currently available.But it would be a standardized glass front and wiring connector. They were easily replaced, never required polishing and everyone stocked them. They seemed to look qiite stylish Porches and XKEs.
You seem to be describing the round sealed beams?
Condensation often gets inside
Obsolete technology, imo
I learned a hard lesson early in home ownership regarding repairs. Always have a provision in the contract that references the time frame for the successful completion of the repair.
Otherwise, you’re exposed to the contractor that starts a job to get their foot in the door and then moves to the next “victim” to partially complete and so on. If you’re lucky they eventually circle back to finish yours.
This specifically happened for a roofing repair to me. The “expectation” was completed in a couple days. But they decided the weather was too nice to work and went fishing for a couple days, then something else came up etc etc etc. After two weeks of me threatening them, they finally completed the roof. Meanwhile, we had bad weather come through and cause some damage due to it being exposed.
Now every contract has a clause with expected timing and the wording “time is of the essence”.
You mentioned hourly and salaried employees striving to perform better to get raises and promotions. With flat rate, you’re essentially in charge of how much you make. The better and more motivated you are, the more jobs you’ll complete (clock) in a given day and so the more you will make. I don’t see the difference. The punitive aspect is also there in both scenarios. Screw up a car repair and you get charged for a call back…
Theoretically, you’re correct
But the warranty administrators, the manufacturer, service managers, etc. will throw a monkey wrench . . . ? . . . in there and mess it all up BUT GOOD
There were countless times at the dealership where a guy was absolutely on fire and clobbering those book times, only for it all to come to a screeching halt, due to one of those guys I mentioned. And then they’d have to jump through hoops, and in the end they got paid a LOT less than the actual time spent on the job
I have seen the techs themselves be responsible for this on occasion as well. Remember the webpage where all the Ford dealer techs were sharing their tricks to beat flat rate?
Last year I had a group of dealer techs who were watching Youtube at lunch. One guy had posted a time-lapse video of him removing an engine/trans in record time–27 minutes from pulling into his stall to the engine/trans sitting on a rolling table. I told the group that when warranty cuts your engine R/R time, they can thank the poster because they now know an engine can be removed in 27 minutes.
If I’m not mistaken it’s the glass part that “sealed” the fate of the sealed beam. Glass is not friendly in a collision, either with a car or a pedestrian, and is no longer allowed. I’m sure aerodynamics play a role too.
I never had an issue with sealed beams not being bright enough.
