My '02 GMC Envoy with about 215K on it needs LCA bushings. No real surprise there as I’d imagine that they are the originals. I did not figure this out. I took it to a shop for some stuff including an alignment and the alignment work revealed that they were “soft.” (Oddly this did not interfere with passing a Virginia safety inspection. And they can’t be that bad as there are no real “symptoms” but I believe them).
In any case, these days the norm seems to be to just order up whole new arms with bushings pre-installed. You pull out the old arms, toss them on the scrap pile and throw in new arms with pre-installed bushings. No fussing around with presses and whatnot.
My own “feeling” about it is to pull out the arms, press out the old bushings, press in the new bushings and re-install. There’s a part of me that trusts my OEM GM arms more than the aftermarket stuff that is typically used as replacements these days. Note: This has always been a “southern” vehicle - no serious exposure to road salt and no heavy rust at all. Just typical surface stuff.
But I might just be irrational in thinking that. If I was going to do this work (which I might), I’d just replace the bushings. But I’m in the “heat dome” right now and thinking of having a shop do it. They’d just throw in the new pre-loaded arms. But they might only do the bushings on my OEM arms if I asked. And I get that trade-off. The parts cost would be less, but it’s more labor. It’s probably a wash in that respect, or maybe even more expensive due to the extra labor. I’d pay the extra for the labor if there was any reason to do it.
Note that this shop is a local one that charges by real labor time rather than some standard “book rate.”
So, you know. Any thoughts are welcome. Does it make any sense to just replace bushings in old arms? Or are those plug-n-play aftermarket things up to snuff and just plain easier? Or whatever.
5 or 6 years or more ago, both of my control arms were replaced. When I had my tires rotated they said one was bad again, but it had a lifetime warranty and luckily for me I’m still alive. Cost me $80 for labor. So I don’t know which is better but they are probably made in the same plant. At any rate I’d just go with what the shop thinks is best.
I replaced the front control arm bushings on my always-in-Florida Mustang. There were only two on each arm. I replaced them with polyurethane bushings. I could have bought control arms with the poly bushings installed with new ball joints but I had special, longer ball joints I wanted to keep.
I have a 12 ton press in my shop. Oxy-Acetylene torches, a small lathe, impact chisel and BIG hammers. I have 40 years of wrenching on rusty cars from Ohio. I have the scars and tetanus shot records to prove it.
The bushings laughed at my 12 ton press. They scoffed at my impact chisel. I darn near threw the lot in the trash to order poly bushed control arms and another set of the special ball joints as significant expense. I successfully changed those bushings but it was a massive pain to remove the factory bushings from the control arms. Don’t be surprised if a mechanic refuses to replace the bushings in your factory arms. They may have learned what I learned! I got the job done but I’d NEVER do it again!
Consider the OE parts lasted 215K miles… And the new ones likely include new ball joints as well. Don’t they need replacing too? Do you really think this thing has another 215K in it?? If the aftermarket replacements last 100K miles, I think that’s when the car becomes scrap metal, don’t you?
Big point right there. For me, I’d be looking at the cost differential. Then, whether or not you have a trusted shop you know.
Many years ago, when I moved to this area, I had to establish new contacts. Asking around, I was told about this non-chain parts store that also had a machine shop. You can stop in with a job like this and the guy almost always drops what he’s doing and takes care of your work. I stand there and watch, talking to him about this and that. His 40T press was tasked on one set of bushings so I would have never gotten those out at home. At least with the arm intact.
Before finding this shop, I had another one R&R my vintage Corvette arms with parts I supplied. He was all smiles handing me the arms with the new bushings but they were obviously bent…
Yeah, I remember doing control arm bushings and ball joints on late 60’s and 70’s model trucks and cars before replacing the control arm assembly’s was a big thing… I’ll take the new control arms with a lifetime warranty now thank you…
The ball joints are Moogs that went in about 10K miles ago, so not too worried about that.
I don’t really think about the actual arms in terms of mileage (bushings yes). But point well taken. Including about the 12T shop press. It’s what I’d be on if I decided to go that route.
With the heat the way it is right now, I’m most likely to just take it to the shop and tell them to do it however they like.
I think it’s a great idea to retain the original control arms and only replace the bushings. I’d also be suspicious of the engine mounts with that many miles on the clock. Replacing engine mounts with the control arms already removed probably makes the job a little easier.
If it was spring or fall with moderate temps, I’d seriously consider it. And I hate to bring up the old “YouTube video” thing, but people are often doing these bushings with a C-clamp type ball joint press and an impact. My 12T shop press can surely do better than that. I’m sure that the “fails” don’t show up on video, but the worst thing that would happen would be to give up and just get new pre-loaded arms if the press-out became a problem.
I’d even just wait until the Fall except that I want to get new tires, and don’t want to wreck them. The shop said it wouldn’t be an issue, but it’s a lot of money to play with if you mess up a new set of tires.
As it is, in Central VA today it was upwards of 100F with terrible humidity with little relief in sight. In one way or another it will be somewhat like this until about September. So I’m thinking I’ll just farm it out and let them do what they do. It’s a new-to-me local shop, but so far I have good reason to trust them. Their quote for both side was in the $650 range - very reasonable, and I have a little extra $$ showing up soon.
If this 2002 GMC Envoy with 215K still has the original control arms, there’s every reason to think the ball joints are just as worn out as the bushings
Just to quote myself (tho I guess I should have said so in the OP):
Even then, once the arms off and you’re doing press work, no big deal to also do the ball joints. (I should also do the uppers as I think they’re originals, tho still solid. One step at a time…)
Thanks keith. I’d agree if not for the weather. (If not for the weather I might not even have asked). The Q was sort of, even if I ask a shop to do it, should I ask them to rebuild my OEM arms.
So on that note, I think I need to refocus the question. It’s not “should I try this?” I’ve done stuff like bushings and bearings that need pressing in and out. It’s the main reason that I have the shop press, tho I’ve also used the c-clamp type ball joint presses. (And BFH’s and air hammers and yada).
The more specific Q is about the sometimes questionable quality of aftermarket stuff. If I - or my shop - pulls the arms and presses good quality bushings into the original arms, am I better off in the long run? Or are those after market things just fine? The only answer might just be “it depends.” When the shop gave me the estimate it was $90-something per, so I just assumed whole new assys. But they didn’t give me a brand.
@Bing attested above to having an early failure. That’s what I think about which is why it was more a question about parts quality. And I don’t think of 215K as crazy high miles. The Envoy is in remarkable shape for it’s age, inside and out.
I can give a few answers to that, and you can take them or leave them.
First, I know how to check ball joints. It’s how I knew to replace the lowers on the Envoy - when I put in the Moogs a few years ago. I’ve done plenty of ball joints over the years in various vehicles of mine. I prefer the bolt off/ons but if I have to get into the press, no major ordeal. Just a little more involved / annoying, and I have to “borrow” the tool from the AP store. (And the last one I got I had to exchange b/c the C-frame was actually bent. WTH? How do you bend one of those things? It prevented getting everything assembled in line properly - sort of dangerous once you start putting pressure on the thing.)
Second, it was just on an alignment rack - which is how this whole thread started with the LCA bushings. If the uppers were bad, they would have said so, and…
…third, would not have just passed it on a VA safety inspection. All the more reason that they would have said so.
Take #2 + #3 and professional mechanics with an alignment rack confirmed my lack of immediate concern about the upper ball joints. At least for the time being. They’re so much easier to do than the lowers. This fall when we get some nice cool days, I’ll probably just do those along with the upper bushings.
I work on my own cars for several reasons. Cost is obviously one. But another is just that I like to do DIY. It’s more like a hobby than “work” - depending on the weather… I just finished replacing the defrost control board in my refrigerator too. Figured it out and fixed it my damned self. Tell me that doesn’t feel good.
But in the end, this was still a thread that was more about keeping OEM to the extent possible vs throwing in aftermarket question marks.
Never mind what I was going to say, but ball joints are very robust. I know they break but I had one very loose and making much noise. When I replaced it I took it apart and loose as it was, was still very hard to get it out of its sockets. I don’t mess with them though and just replace.
Yes, bad ball joints are not to be taken lightly. I’d rather lose brakes than have a ball joint give out. I mean, it’s not as if they’re not the little things supporting the entire vehicle.
Welllll??? I bent my Snap-on one by trying to press out the wonderful twin I beam ball joints the wrong way the 1st time I had ever done one, yeah, I didn’t clean all the crap off of them that reveals the snap ring, and know I didn’t look at the new ones, I had just done multiple ball joints that day and just thought it was really stuck… lesson learned…
Yeah had to put it in the shop press and slowly bend it back, left it overnight with pressure on it… Still works great…
Had a customer come in with a strange squeak when turning the wheel, tech got in to move the vehicle and while making a U-turn it separated just like that one did… Went in and said, good news, we found your noise…
Yeah, I’m blunt sometimes…
Live and learn. But the question remains open. HOW did you bend it? As in by what method? Just by laying into it with an impact? I’m thinking those things have to withstand more torque than an impact can put on them. Especially if it’s a Snap-On.
Somewhat similar story to missing the snap ring. While doing inner tie-rods I once tried to wreck a steering rack by not knowing about a lock washer. I’d done several inner tie rods, but all had a set screw of some kind. I didn’t find any set screw so just went to cranking. Bad idea if you don’t know the specifics of what you’re working on. Lesson leaned before I wrecked it.
Top of the line (for the day) Mac (Ingersoll Rand) 1/2" drive impact… Also have a really good Snap-on breaker bar that might have been involved with a floor jack handle on the end of it, tis was about 25 years ago… and I was stubborn and very determined… but I got it, once I figured out WTH was going on…
Don’t worry, probably not the dumbest thing I ever did…
