CO2 emissions

Maintenance/Repairs
41

Thanks Doc.

I’m comfortable with the EPA developing the framework to regulate compliance with legislated mandates. That’s their function. I’m not confortable with their expanding the boundaries of their authority by regulating things that are not legislated mandates, such as CO2 levels. If the congress determines that CO2 levels should be included in the environmental legislation, than let it be debated and passed through the legislative process. Only then should the EPA regulate it.

Thanks for the primer on the Dutch system. It sounds like the system varies primarily in that it only has one legislative body, the parliament, and agencies such as the Water Estate are comparable to our regulatory agencies.

Unfortunately, powerful senators and concresspeople are too engrained in the system. Unforunately multimillion dollar bridges to nowhere and federal buildings (when the feds are already in possession of many millions of square feet of vacant office space), federal subsidies for powerful industries, and countless “porkbarrel” add-ons to otherwide meaningful legislation have become a way of life. New agencies for every bill have become commonplace also. I read that the new health care proposal includes the creation of over 120 new agencies. I wonder how many new agencies new climate change legislation would add.

42

We are not ignoring this problem, Jack. I have been following this nonsense since 1960 when the glorious scientists announced we were going to enter an ice age. I am not ignoring it at all. I am merely aware that it is a bunch of bull, started by those who want the same one world government the Communists wanted back in the 30’s; 40’s; and 50’s. Using the economy didn’t work, because capitalism outperformed Communism.

So, now the same ilk wants to shove it through with claims we are all going to die if we don’t shut down all the factories and cars and everything important. Enough of this nonsense.

CO2 is harmless. No, it is good because it helps plants grow better.

The desperate attempt to say the e-mails mean nothing is just that, a desperate attempt to cover up the truth. No lie is too big. No insult is too big to try to shut up anyone who does not agree.

Remember Freon R-12? Figures showed that hoax cost this planet around $3 trillion dollars overall, including increased energy use to cool with the less efficient stuff. The company which made R-12 was sure delighted, because their patent had expired, and they made sure to raise the price on the new stuff.

Your ilk pulled the same nonsense. No lie was too big. No insult was too big. No one who knew why R-12 could not harm the ozone was allowed to testify in government hearings.

Perhaps you thought getting us used to believing we were destroying the economy would tempt us to accept the world government with Emperor Algore on the throne.

Actually, the knowledge of how the R-12 ban was rammed through contrary to basic laws of physics motivated us to understand this is more or less a fight to the death.

I say that because the greenies have been telling us for many decades the correct population of the world is six million. That means you guys want five billion; nine hundred ninety four million human beings to die.

Even Hitler only wanted to slaughter a few odd millions.

The conduct of the EPA shows a lot of people do not understand history. These wonderful folks really believe they can do absolutely anything, and the heavily armed population will sit and take it. And, it is true, when times are good and people are fat and sassy, the government can get by with a lot, even outright lies and hoaxes.

The people aren’t fat and sassy. Nearly 20% are out of work, and are finding times hard. This is not the time to destroy the economy based on a pack of lies and insults and bad science.

43

“The idea that man is responsible for global warming seems implausible to me.”

Maybe, but I don’t agree. Certain scientists have determined temperature changes over eons by looking at ice plugs from the Arctic and Antarctic. They determined that during the early 1960s we were supposed to go into a global cooling period based on past performance. But temperatures went up. And up. And up. They have risen continuously for the last 50 years. While we may not be entirely to blame, we certainly can control it to a great extend by lowering our impact. Here’s an unimpeachable source for climate data. While the changes are not large (look at the y-axis), the trend is undeniably up, up, up.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/

44

“I never said it was impossible, just difficult, and I have great doubts about the chosen mechanism (cap and trade). It’s open to cheating, corruption, and requires a large new buracracy. I think there are better, cheaper, more effective ways to do this, but no politician wants to say ‘tax’.”

Is there is something that isn’t open to cheating? Show me a rule, any rule, and I’ll show you a target for innovative connivers.

45

“Okay, for one, climate scientists aren’t getting rich off of this.”

But they are making a living wage.

“I found it interesting that Exxon-Mobil, back when they were the main climate change deniers, commissioned these studies by scientists…”

Hey, look how long it worked for the tobacco companies.

Cynical JT (and realistic in this case)

46

“Remember- the people that are crafting this policy in DC probably couldn’t keep a Subaru running.”

Sure they can. There are 11 Subaru dealerships in the DC metro area. Sadly, none are inside the beltway. I’m happier that they don’t. If they did, it would imply that they have too much time on their hands. Their time is too important for them to spend personal time repairing their cars, even if they like to.

47

“Also try this. Do a net search about the era from around the 1940s/early 50s when manufacturing production went way up, the car business was booming, etc.”

Too local. What about Asia, Africa, Australia, and South America? And in North America, look at how Mexico, Canada, and the USA have grown. US population more than doubled during that time period. Auto manufacturing is alive in the USA, though it has seen better days recently. I’ll bet that Toyota builds more vehicles in one year in the USA than Studebaker , or most (if not all) defunct US manufacturers ever built.

48

“We are not ignoring this problem, Jack. I have been following this nonsense since 1960 when the glorious scientists announced we were going to enter an ice age.”

Predictions were made based on eons of temperature data from ice cores. Something changed - guess what.

“CO2 is harmless. No, it is good because it helps plants grow better.”

To a point. Did you know that you can drink too much water and it can kill you. Oh, yes you can.

“Even Hitler only wanted to slaughter a few odd millions.”

What?! The most recent person I can think of who fits that description is the Last King of Scotland. He died in 1979.

“… a lot of people do not understand history.”

I agree.

49

Included!-kevin"He who has the gold,makes the rules"

50

Chuckle!-Kevin

51

Follow the money on the R-12 fiasco, see who benefited the most(don’t think it was the O3)-Kevin

52

“Elected” or “un-elected” is a relative term. I would rather have an unelected government department which was immune to special interests create a process or statute than have politically indebted elected oficials create these regulations.

Not far from here there is a city which had a mayor who was so indebted to special interests that he made some really bad strategic decisons. There is a park named after him, often referred to as in honor of “the best mayor money could buy”.

My niece lived in Louisiana near New Orleans for a number of years. She compared it to a third world country in terms of how well democracy functioned there.

Singapore is a democracy with a bit of a despotic ruler. But Transparency International rates it as one of the top 10 in terms of lack of corruption and influence peddling. The US rates 14 on that scale! Singapore is also one of world’s most efficient societies and the civil service is lean and effective.

A wealthy woman driving over the bridge from a nearby country with looser standards, was instantly arrested when she tried to bribe a police officer who charged her with speeding.

53

“…everything- and I do mean EVERYTHING that our government does is politically motivated.”

Not necessarily. A climatologist at NASA expressed professional opinions that the Bush Administration didn’t like. They tried to force him to recant. He refused, and they tried to make life hard for him. Their little escapade did not work. It did get the guy a lot of air time for his opinions, so it actually backfired on them.

I hope you don’t live in Florida or very near one of the oceans. If you do, you won’t have a home when the polar ice melts completely. Do you think that the cleanup from Katrina is expensive? Just wait until you get the bill for the 30-foot dike surrounding the US. Of course, it could be a bill for relocating 20% of the USA population. Part or all of Miami, Washington, DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, Boston, New Orleans, Houston, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle would be under water. OK; maybe a lot more than 20%. Do you still want that dinosaur-hot climate?

54

“The idea that man is responsible for global warming seems implausible to me.”

At least partly responsible, yes, I think so. And if the polar ice is all gone in one hundred years, several billion people will die or be relocated inland to the new coast. The Earth’s population is estimated at 7 billion to day. Most people live near the oceans. If the ice melts, the oceans will rise 20 or more feet. That puts a lot of coastal cities under water. If the world population doubles a few times in the next 100 years, then several billion will be dislocated. Even if we aren’t responsible for all of it, losing a lot of Society’s infrastructure should be enough to make us try something to avoid the big melt.

55

jt, climate scientists are not getting rich as such, but are getting a lot of free PR which they will later capitalize on.

However, Al Gore is not a scientist and he is getting very wealthy from this “cause”. If there was an award given for lying with statistics, he would get the Nobel Prize. This man is more capable than any Miss Universe contestant in massaging and distorting figures!

P.S. I do believe that the climate is changing, but Al Gore and Canada’s David Suzuki have raised mass scaring and distortion to new heights.

56

"I am not ignoring it at all. I am merely aware that it is a bunch of bull, started by those who want the same one world government the Communists wanted back in the 30’s; 40’s; and 50’s. Using the economy didn’t work, because capitalism outperformed Communism. "

The difference is, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to hide or leave; vote it out. But don’t vote for one of those guys that espouses the same view, that govt. is evil and is filled with evil people; cause that includes the candidate.
The difference is, WE ARE THE Govt., where in Communist ctrys, the people aren’t. It’s time for people who hate govt, to get out of it. Why vote for someone who says “I want to do as little as possible because anything I do will be bad.” Not so great attitude for a teacher/cop or any other profession.

You have a right not to have fire/police protection by moving, not to have someone make sure your food is safe by growing your own, but you don’t have a right to pollute MY air. I can’t stop you so I want the people I vote for to.

57

With respect, Dag, I disagree with the statement that we are the government. We do not vote on the laws. We elect people to represent us, who once in office are free to vote however they choose. Once entrenched, they even get to determine what laws will be voted on (by becoming committee members and committee chairs).

In the case that is the subject of this post, the U.S. Supreme court (an unelected body seated by political bodies) has found that the EPA, also an unelected body (of regulators) has the authority to be regulating and enforcing a standard that is not found in the law (in this case CO2). The EPA’s regulations will have the full effect of law, yet won’t even have been debated and voted on by our alleged representatives.

I’m sorry to disagree, my friend, but we have almost zero say in the laws of our land now. And the Supreme Court has by this decision authorized lawmaking by a regulatory body rather than the elected officials.

58

I respectfully disagree…
We are not the government at the Federal level. We USED to be the government at the Federal level. We the People still retain some level of power at the state and local level, but the Fed has over-reached into areas that should be left to the state. How did this happen?
Simple- career politicians who secure their reelection by transferring wealth from the producers to the parasites…there will always be more parasites that producers, so they get elected over and over. The Founding Fathers did not anticipate that these “Hired Gun” politicians would make a career out of raping the country…they unfortunately assumed that future politians would be like themselves- public servants for awhile, then back to their real jobs.

The solution (If it isn’t too late already) is term limits.

As an aside, I am very impressed with the quality of the posts and the lack of personal attacks in this thread. I am learning much from both sides.

59

Thank you. The guys here are a great bunch. Occasionally a lone wolf will pass through, but they usually don’t stay.

You made excellent points. The founding fathers certainly must have envisioned citizens who serve, as they were, rather than professional politicians. My, how things have changed.

Besides term limits, which I support, line-item vetos would be a nice change.

60

I think we are to some extent, all dissatisfied with the conduct of the govt. at one time or another. We see it differently as far as regulations and restrictions placed upon us and I respect your feelings as well as those of others who may disagree. But, it’s a pox that is not of the govt’s making alone. One of my favorite presidents, Dwight Eisenhower had an inkling of what would come to pass.

“We” (you and I) are content to let those with special interest have their way. We support the right for corporations to steal millions and castigate the individual for taking advantage in pennies of a govt. support program that tries to help. Both need to be accountable.

I confess to being an unabashed flower child who is divorced from the 2 party system and feel efforts like supporting run off elections are a real solution to getting real independent minds on both extremes whose interest is in people and not profit alone. Two ideas that never have to be mutually exclusive. We can be good stewards of the environment and make a profit doing it. Getting rid of labels and generalizations are the first step toward that end.

Regards