Thanks Keith for the info - as for diagnostics at an independent shop, I’m going to keep looking in the small town I live in, but so far none of the mechanics I go to seem interested in anything but putting the car on a code reader and telling me I need a catalytic convertor, when in fact I may or may not. I’ve suggested looking for leaks, lazy sensors, some of the stuff I’ve gotten on here but no one seems to care - maybe they don’t really know what they are doing. Very frustrating!
Small inde shops might still have the Honda diagnostic scan tool. Anyone can purchase it I think. It isn’t exclusive to the dealer. You don’t need a shop that only does Hondas. But a shop that invests in the proper diagnostic equipment for your Honda is more likely to get you good results. Replacing a cat is an expensive proposition, so you want to make sure it definitely needs to be replaced and that will fix the problem before doing so.
In any event, if your state has emissions testing as a requirement for registration, be sure to consult with them before purchasing a questionable cat. You may end up not being able to register your car next time it is due.
Edit …
I’ll add that if this were my Honda, what I might do if I became frustrated enough, like in this situation, is as my mechanic to remove the cat temporarily, replace it with a straight tube, drive it for a couple days sans cat, and see if that solved the drivability problem. Would provide an important clue at least. But be aware doing might be illegal. Best of luck.
George, the Honda doesn’t have a drivability problem - initially it did when I had to replace the oxygen sensor - it was hesitating and surging badly - but now it runs just fine - the darn light just came back on two days later and is still on except for one brief time when it went off on its own and for other times mechanics have reset it only to have it come on later. I am going to call a couple of other local shops in my area and explain the situation and see if they can give me any more assistance - the shops I have been to have the code reader but they don’t seem interested in testing for a leak or lazy sensor, etc. - I will keep looking. And by the way, I got to thinking that in the whole 3 weeks this has been going on, the car hasn’t been out on the highway - my daily routine is lots of stop and go traffic. I did get it out on the open highway yesterday for about 30 miles round trip. When I returned, the light was still on but I can tell from the trip that the car runs just fine. I haven’t been out yet today.
And by the way, I live in NC where we do have emissions tests and it is illegal to remove the catalytic convertor!
You might try using a product from B&G Products called 44 K, part number 208A. By adding it to the fuel it might clean the CAT and stop the code issue. Here is a link to their website.
If you can’t find someone who is willing to properly diagnose your problem, then I am inclined to go with db’s original suggestion to replace the rear oxygen sensor only at this time. Normally, replacing the rear sensor has about a 60% chance of fixing the problem, but with the descriptions you have given lately, I believe the chances are much higher. If the cat was truely bad, the MIL should never go out on its own and would come back on almost immediately after it was turned off.
How about this?
Make sure there are no exhaust leaks upstream of the oxygen sensors
Have somebody replace the downstream (rear) sensor
Clear the code, let the monitors run to completion
If the code reoccurs, have Honda flash the computer with the latest software
Clear the code, let the monitors run to completion
If the the code reoccurs, you probably do need a cat
Yes thanks Keith. It helps to understand why the check engine light may not be going on. But this loss of power can be serious. Are you saying that even though the light is not on, a diagnostic test may identify where the problem is if it is within the engine cycles you mentioned? If so, I’ll make sure the car gets checked shortly after an episode.
Playing devil’s advocate for a minute, I will just say that because a shop may appear to be unwilling or unable to solve a problem does not mean incompetence on their part.
The shop is presented with a 10 year old car with X number of miles and which suffers an intermittent power loss which may or may not have anything to do with converter or O2 codes.
They may simply be a bit antsy about sticking their nose into something which may be time consuming and finish at a dead end with no problem found. This leaves the shop looking bad or stuck in a situation where they have X amount of time chasing a gremlin and how to bill for that time in a diplomatic manner. Sometimes it’s simply not possible to exit gracefully…
Not every problem will show up on a code reader, scanner, or any other diagnostic tool; especially intermittents.
stulist, yes. But the next time you have an episode, you should drive to the nearest autoparts store that reads codes for free and get them read immediately.
The generic OBD II codes are for emissions related issues though. You can have a drivability issue that might not set a generic code because it does not affect emissions. Many manufacturers also incorporate codes for these, but they can only be read by either a factory supplied scanner or a professional diagnostic station, not a consumer grade code reader. These are usually stored long term and there are some that won’t even turn on the MIL no matter how often the DTC is detected. You will need to go to a dealer or an independent that has a full diagnostic system with all the latest updates.
Try some cataclean. You can buy it on Amazon. It cleans out the catalytic converter and the O2 sensors. It may help and if it does you can stop trying get a fix from mechanics that want to swap out high cost parts. Have you looked on the mechanics files for your area?
I hear you guys talking about cataclean
Has anyone on this forum tried it out?
Has anyone verified that it “cleaned out” a partially plugged cat?
Thank you keith and knfenimore. I will have my daughter try to get the code read quickly after an incident, although I understand it may not be successful. I also understand the shops we’ve taken it to are trying to be helpful without ringing up a large bill that does not solve the problem. I trust these shops and agree with you keith. I don’t normally use additives, but the cataclean product has come up twice now. may try it and will post the results. Thanks again
Using the additives may solve the trouble and that would be a very simple fix for the issue. If it doesn’t work, you aren’t out much money and it would be way less than a service shop bill.
This discussion seems to have shifted toward solving stulest’s problems but I wanted to post an update on my check engine light situation with the 2003 Honda Civic. I finally broke down this morning and traveled an hour away and spent the $97 at the Honda dealership. It wasn’t a total waste of time and money - I learned some things and was able to get an extra key for my vehicle made that didn’t cost as much as I had thought. They did some diagnostics and determined that my catalytic convertor is gradually going bad - this is the fourth opinion - not what I wanted to hear but if it is, it is. However, they want to insist that their $1,100 genuine Honda one is the only one that will actually work. I’m as skeptical of this as I am the person that quoted me $125 for a new Cat! Maybe the Meineke folks $600 is about right? Would want to see if there’s a warranty on any of them. Now for the rest of the stuff that the dealer “invented” and I’m not inclined to totally believe - they claim my transmission, brake and power steering fluids all need to be flushed to the tune of $500! I’m skeptical because my usual mechanic said two months ago when I was buying the car that they looked fresh - how can they be “bad” in 2 months with almost 2,000 more miles? I will get the oil changed next month and ask that they be checked then. They also found a small oil leak - that is disappointing at 132,000 miles because I also own a 2000 Honda CR-V with 204,000 that is just now having oil leaks. It doesn’t seem to be bad - yet. As for the Cat, the car is still running but I have noticed in the last week a slight loss of power and the car sounds a bit louder than usual but not bad. I need to go out of town 3 hours away tomorrow but the Honda dealership doesn’t advise it in this car. The check engine light is staying on but they warned it could start blinking on the trip. I must admit to being a little afraid myself but are they just being fear mongers?
@wncgirl wrote: “how can they be “bad” in 2 months with almost 2,000 more miles?”
The same way a dealership claimed my manual transmission fluid needed “flushing” 2200 miles after I had changed it: rip-off.
If the oil leak isn’t dripping on the ground or causing the oil level to drop fugeddaboutit!
Minor oil leaks seem to be a favorite way for some shops to reach further into your wallet.
If you live in California, you do have to get the Honda cat, otherwise a less expensive cat will do. I am very disappointed in this dealers treatment of you. I think you should complain to the general manager about all the “upselling” the service manager is pulling on you.
BTW, Honda specifically recommends against a “flush” for their transmissions. Power steering doesn’t need to be flushed, brakes, I’d have to see the fluid for myself.
You cat is always slowly deteriorating, everybodys is. BTW, take your trip. what will cause the MIL to flash would be a misfire or fuel trim that will do significant damage to the cat, not by a cat going bad.
The more I think about it, the more I am inclined to think that they followed the troubleshooting procedures outlined in the factory service manual. For $97, this is what they were supposed to do.
I don’t live in California - I’m really think the more “middle of the road” priced one is best. Maybe it’s like what my parents always told me about buying appliances - don’t buy the cheapest but don’t buy the most expensive. They said I will get a survey and believe me, I will give them a piece of my mind and I may take your suggestion and contact the manager. This is why I generally avoid dealers unless the vehicle is under warranty but they were the only ones I could find that did the more advanced diagnostics and I wanted to be sure.
Only $500 to replace fluids that don’t need to be replaced? Over my 198,000 miles on my 2002 Sienna, I have gone to the dealer in the McAllen area. Yes, I know it costs more, but they fix it usually same day, and they don’t try to stick me with busted up rebuilt parts like a lot of mechanics do. The service writer has generally been very competent and helpful.
Several years ago, after a relatively minor repair, the mechanic recommended a $40 parking brake adjustment. This surprised me because I live mostly in a mountain village where parking on the level is not an option most times. So, my parking brake is almost always operated before I put it in Park. I talked to the service writer and he reported back the mechanic assumed no one uses their parking brake, thus at that mileage it would need to be adjusted. But, it was my $40 they wanted for something I didn’t need without even checking it.
That was small stuff. This June with 198,000 miles I wanted something routine in Maintenance done, I forget.
The mechanic recommended $1000 for replacing transmission fluid; brake fluid; power steering pump fluid; and coolant, I think.
The problem was, I just had all that done in the last 30,000 miles or so.
Also, I personally drain 3 quarts from the transmission and add 3 quarts like every 20,000 miles, and do check it from time to time. It was perfectly clean.
I was, to say the least displeased. So, I called the service writer. He said, “Well, they said it was STARTING to get dirty.” Oh, like when it had 5 miles on it back in 2001?
And, he added, the transmission fluid would only be $250. Oh, wow! Only $250 to change transmission fluid that doesn’t need to be changed? Gosh, what a relief. And, they would take out my clean Mobil-1 synthetic transmission fluid and put in regular Toyota fluid, or maybe even bulk stuff? No, I don’t think so.
I don’t think it was the service writer. I might be wrong, but I think it was the mechanic trying to make points with the service manager.
I complained heartily to the service writer. If something like that happens again, I will take the time to look up the manager, not the service manager, but the big guy on top. That sort of nonsense can cause a dealer’s reputation to suffer.
Does your car have California emissions . . . look at the underhood label
A backpressure test would reveal an exhaust restriction . . . aka a plugged cat
Hi all, a few days have elapsed but hopefully my problem has been solved with another sensor. I had decided after my visit to the dealership that if I did indeed need a catalytic convertor I would go with the Meineke one - it has a warranty and the price is a mid-range one. I went down there earlier this week to talk to them about it and ended up getting the mechanic that put my first sensor on. I told him how four other mechanics - including the dealership and another one at Meinke - had all said the convertor was bad. He asked that I bring it down and leave it overnight so he could perform some sort of “smoke test” on it when the engine was cold - I’m not mechanical and don’t know what it entailed. It was Thursday evening before I could leave it. Turns out with this test that he didn’t find an leaks, etc. and seemed to think that replacing the other oxygen sensor would work. So far, in just a short drive home, my light is off and everything seems good. He did show me the old sensor and even though I am not mechanical, it looked bad to me. Let’s keep our fingers crossed that this will solve my problem. I certainly don’t need anything else as my other car - a 2000 Honda CR-V that my teenage son drives - now is throwing codes for a bank 1 sensor and a misfire, probably needing spark plugs or wires. That would be another discussion but I can’t complain as it has 204,000 and has never needed anything like this.