“the difference is that if even ONE wheel slips, the ABS kicks in and affects ALL of the wheels.”
Give me a moment to craft my response. Okay…
Does not!
Why on earth would it do that? One of the huge advantages of ABS is that it CAN control the brakes on each wheel individually. If it behaved like you say, why would they even bother having four wheel sensors, and not just a drivetrain speed sensor like the old RWALB systems?
I’ve certainly driven some cars over the years that had annoyingly sensitive ABS, but if you just act normally when the pedal starts pulsing (i.e. don’t just immediately let off or stomp down harder), it performs just fine. In the early days of ABS that was why the reduction in crashes wasn’t as much as expected-- because people panic when the pedal starts pulsing. You just need to let it do its thing.
With abs you swerve and end up in the ditch… roll over or in a tree, dead.
The studies are where ?
I didn’t know people were incapable of turning in two directions with abs; away from the deer and back away from the ditch. But then you could just freeze like the deer in a head light w/o abs, hope it was a deer and not a moose, and eat well that night. So maybe abs just get’s in the way of a good meal sometimes…good argument. Oh, then there’s possible exposure to Lyme disease ! Continued suffering…along with those strangled by their seat belts and impaled during air bag deployment. How can we survive with all those dangerous safety devices ? Studies have shown, they’re killing more people than they are saving…don’t ask me what studies, just studies !
For the record, I knew when I posted that others would feel differently about ABS than I do. We’ve had the debate before.
ABS is one of those technologies that makes a tradeoff that I don’t personally like based on my driving environment in order to accomplish a benefit that I’ve never needed. My driving style is to leave lots of room around me and anticipate well in advance of situations. I pretty much know well in advance what I’m going to do and prepare when I see a situation developing rather than at the moment it happens. The only accident I’ve been in in over 40 years of driving was one 5 years ago that was totally unavoidable. On a crowded highway a van in the laft lane driven by immigrant laborers realized he’d missed his exit and tried to suddenly cross lanes to get on the ramp. Unfortunately, I was already in the right lane exactly at the place where he tried to cross.
One learns in engineering that everything has tradeoffs. Create a system to accomplish one thing and it always has a tradeoff. Using the ABS system to accomplish things like stability control will by necessity have a tradeoff elsewhere also, although I’m not yet aware of what it will be. ABS functions by interfering with the hydraulics of the brake system. And it cannot be overridden by the driver. I’m averse to adding more circumstances under which the brake system is interfered with in such a manner.
I respect that others with different driving environments, different driving habits, and/or different experiences have different opinions. I just wish in this case that I had an “off” switch for the system.
Ohhkay, you know better. Gee, I’ve been driving this car for…7 years, I think I know how it performs under those conditions. It has 4 wheel sensors so it can tell if any one of them is slipping and then do its thing. Not all ABS systems are created equal. You seem to think the opposite. I’ve driven some that were much better than others. They are good for one thing and one thing only, keeping the car straight under slippage. But when it kicks in and you go 40ft instead of 10, then it’s a harrowing experience.
“GreasyJack”…without getting into your politics, it feels like the morning after the second Bush election. We get up in the morning thinking…how could that many people be so wrong ? Is there something the two of us are missing missing ? Maybe the rest are talking about “Abs” of steel and core training being not needed and we’re the only ones talking about anti lock braking system.
I prefer a non ABS vehicle myself but I can see the need for it if the driver is inexperienced with panic stopping. A new ABS system is great but as they age they tend to have problems sometimes. They will actually increase the stopping distance if they have problems. I learned to drive before ABS so I can stop in a panic situation without losing control. I have the advantage of a racing background but not all drivers do. Most drivers never panic stop until they are in the middle of the real thing so the outcome is anyones guess.
I know where you’re coming from and you make a good point. But, it is interesting to note that ABS was used on F1 race cars in the early 90’s, but was banned around '94/95 (along with most of the other Driver aids - such as Active ride suspension) - when it was deemed that the cars were too easy to drive with these aids.
It’s definitely an advantage to the other drivers as well when I can swerve and avoid them more easily regardless of my “ice racing” experience.
As for increased stopping distance, it’s only been shown a slight increase on gravel surfaces, and still with better control. Another thing to go wrong ? Sure, just like a malfunctioning inertia controlled lap belt.
I learned to drive in the pre-ABS days and was instructed to “pump the brakes” in an emergency stop to prevent the brakes from locking up and throwing the car into an uncontrolled skid. You can’t steer either! There are very few drivers who can overcome the sudden terror in an emergency stop to discipline themselves to do this. It takes a lot of self control to pull your foot off the break on the verge of a collision to regain traction. But this is the specific situation which you need to consider.
It would not stop me from buying it. I do believe it is better (safer) to have it, than not. Given a choice I would certainly prefer it (or better yet one of the newer more active systems.
I’m always a little surprised by how much my own opinion differs from most people on these safety-related questions. It seems to me that an entire generation of drivers has been raised to be completely reliant on all the high-tech gizmos stuffed in new cars. Whether or not a car had air bags, ABS, traction control, etc., would never even cross my mind as I considered buying it. The most important safety device in a car is the driver. Learning to drive WITHOUT all the technology will make anyone a far better driver, in any type of vehicle. I know, I know, it’s the OTHER guy we have to worry about, blah … blah … blah. The other guy probably depends way too much on the technology, too. My point is that all the new tech has just allowed people to become complacent behind the wheel and take far greater risks that they would not take in a car without all the tech. Some will then say that that’s why we need all the safety pieces; I say it just escalates the bad driving habits. Wait until the day when a car can guarantee survival in ANY crash: people will be crashing on purpose !
I hear you; maybe playing football w/o a helmet would cut down on head/neck injuries. It’s like social security, try taking it away once people have them. Let’s see if car models w/o sell as well as those that do. I think the automatic transmission has contributed as much to poor driving habits as any feature. Would most then go back to a stick ?
My current car (2006 Honda Civic) is the first car I’ve owned with ABS. For winter driving, I think the premium snow tires that I invested in (Nokian Hakkapeliitta) have done more to keep me out of trouble than the ABS. For the rest of the year, careful driving, good tires and a well maintained car still count for more than ABS, stability control or any other electronic systems, in my opinion.
I personally don’t like ABS,but it would not be a deal breaker. Especially if the vehicle being purchased has no T.S.Bs (Technical Service Bulletins)concerning ABS issues.As a Firefighter, experienced in vehicle rescue, the air bag is the deal breaker. My own daughter hit a tree head on. The air bag saved her. (along with shoulder/lap retraint)I know from experience air bags don’t save everyone;but people walk away from accidents that would have caused injury or death twenty years ago.Most people panic when ABS is deployed. It should be part of driver training to experience and manuever a vehicle with ABS applied.
My daughter is 24. She drives like an idiot. Since she got her license 7 years ago, she’s managed to completely destroy 3 cars, and wreck another 2 or 3 that were able to be repaired. Some had all the high-tech safety gear; some had none. Made no difference until she got a Harley. Suddenly, the Heavens opened and she miraculously knew how to drive safely, and hasn’t crashed her bike yet, after almost 6 years. Why the change? Because she KNEW the vehicle would not provide any protection for the consequences of her bad driving. I’ll say it again: the driver is worth more than any safety devices an engineer or Fed bureaucrat can dream up. If your car has all the safety gear, great; it probably can’t hurt (except when it fails and you get hit with the repair bill). But my advice to you, Bellaruse, is to concentrate more on educating your teenage driver about bad driving habits than worrying about the vehicle’s equipment. It may feel like arguing with a cement block, but it’ll pay off in the long run.
I’m no fan of ABS and here’s why. I used to live at Fort Wainwright, Alaska. I was driving in Fairbanks where the middle of the road was covered in very slippery ice, but the right tires were on bare pavement. A car stopped suddenly in front of me and I hit on the brakes. The ABS detected slippage on the left wheels even though the right wheels were on solid, dry, ice-free pavement. I plowed right into the back of the car in front of me, an older car that didn’t have ABS and easily stopped. I was only driving about 30mph and there was lots and lots of room in front of me, so don’t accuse me of tailgating or speeding. Sure, I can’t argue the particular to the general, but I’d be curious to see if the wide use of ABS has had a net increase in accident rates or a decrease. Can anyone produce facts and figures?
Addendum: Dad used to race cars and taught me modulated braking. I’ve found by using gradually increasing pressure on the brake, the heavier, non-ABS, mud-tire equipped Jeep stops faster, but not straighter than the ABS-equipped Subaru. The beauty of the Subaru is that, in panic stops, you can still change direction. Though, I just did a full brake job on the Jeep for $280. Just changing a sensor - just one sensor - on the Subaru cost $300.
I’m reminded of an encounter up in Giessen, Germany. A young lady was standing outside her car, unable to unlock it with the keyless remote. I offered to help, and unlocked the door with the key. She didn’t even know that her key worked in the door.
Addendum: Since writing this post, I made a point to look at the cars in the parking lot outside the office. Most newer cars don’t even have key holes in the doors anymore. Are we tech savvy or tech dependent? Increases in complexity result in increases in likelyhood of mishap. More moving parts, more chance for failure. The new Subaru is great, but I prefer to drive the old Jeep. It only has about 14 moving parts and I can fix the whole thing with a crescent wrench and a screwdriver.
In Colorado, I swerved to miss a dog and ended up in a snow bank. I tried to make an insurance claim, but couldn’t prove why I ended up in the snow bank. I paid big. In Germany, I swerved to miss a cat and ended up in a hayfield with two bashed rims and two ruined tires. Again, I paid big. In Utah, a deer jumped in front of a rental van. It almost made it, but the right fender hit its rump, spun it around and its head and body smashed in the passenger door. I had no trouble at all with insurance, because I had a dead deer by the road and a matching deer print on the side of the car. Sometimes, it’s better to hit the critter than try to prove why you ended up by the side of the road.
Oh, then there’s possible exposure to Lyme disease ! Continued suffering…along with those strangled by their seat belts and impaled during air bag deployment. How can we survive with all those dangerous safety devices ? Studies have shown, they’re killing more people than they are saving…don’t ask me what studies, just studies !