Anyone going to the dealerships?
Volt has been reduced by 5K on 2012 and 2013. (Inventory reduction).
Leaf has reduced leased rates.
@dagosa - yes, I will believe your baseless speculation about why former BMW owners chose a Volt as their next car, and discount the words of the owners themselves. Yeah, that makes sense {end sarcasm}
I saw a new crossover SUV, BMW last week, Taken aback when I saw the dealer’s tag on the window–$53K.
Now kinda figure that GM does have the market priced correctly-low end of highend market, for those who want some status, showing some wealth, and not being rich.
Most of the people I see driving Pri’s are those of us who are 55+. I can see us transitioning to the next level to PEV and plugin the car while we are at the senior center. :-))
@circuitsmith - No, but people who draw their negative conclusions about the Volt in a bubble without any reference to any real world facts nor experiences, and deny the evidence when presented fairly, ARE simply “blind Volt haters” (and there are MANY). I was merely stating that I’m glad that texases is proven to not be one of those as he seemed still open-minded.
As for what I called your “break-even analysis” of a Cruze versus a Volt in context: “Doing a cost comparison between a Cruze and a Volt is really rather silly”, but I did not simply state that, I gave a couple of examples of why. Let’s review, and add one more:
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The Volt shares no drive train components, and very few if any body panels, interior components, brakes, suspension, wheels, the list goes on. Not just an “electric battery and drive system” in a Cruze as you implied.
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The driving experience (acceleration, handling, cornering, ride, etc) is not similar between the vehicles
And we’ve also determined:
- The consumers cross-shopping and eventually buying or leasing the vehicles are mostly not the same (mostly previous Japanese or German car owners) If you want to do a payback comparison, do it with the vehicle(s) these folks would have otherwise purchased. A Cruze is not one of those but in a very small % of cases.
So my point is the comparison is silly in the way it would be silly to do a break-even between a Camry and a Lexus ES hybrid…because the ES is in a different class and gives you a different, more upscale driving experience than the Camry. The Volt versus a Cruze even more so, with its torque-y pure electric drive and low center of gravity handling. True, GM has not done much to brand the Volt as more upscale than the Cruze, but most reviewers and virtually all owners agree that it is.
So don’t expect a Volt to “pay you back” over a Cruze, Civic, Corolla or any other entry level commuter car…heck you’ll never catch up compared to a Hyundai Crapsent…um I mean Accent 
(just as the Accent will never pay you back compared to an electric moped). But if you were already planning on purchasing any one of many $30k+ upscale vehicles, the VOlt will save you from day one.
But even if it’s not saving you $ personally compared to what you used to drive or would have chosen, it provides a unique electric driving experience that also greatly reduces your personal gasoline consumption (and overall fuel expenses), and for many that has great value or may even be priceless.
Off $5k ? Bet that makes previous buyers real happy.
@Aventineavenue,good points,you have sold me on a Volt.That 40 mile pure electric range would be bliss for me.But alas if I ever get another car,it would probaly be a used Civic or new Versa-Kevin
@aventineavenue, I did not do a “break-even analysis”.
You’re so focused on defending the Volt you almost completely miss the point I was trying to make:
That the initial cost of the battery is more than the cost of electricity to charge it over its lifetime.
I’ve found this to be true of lead-acid, nickel and lithium batteries.
This means the low cost of electrically “fueling” the Volt is not such a big deal.
I used the Cruze only to estimate the approximate cost of the Volt’s battery-electric system.
I mentioned before I currently own two electric vehicles, and I work in the engineering school of a university which owns a GM EV-1 with a turbo diesel + electric drive, so I don’t need you to lecture me about the “unique electric driving experience”.
@circuitsmith Did it occur to you that my comments about the “unique electric driving experience” my be directed at the many readers of the this discussion, and not you directly? (like this comment)
I got your point; I just don’t agree with the premise.
Yes, I agree electricity is thankfully an inexpensive method of energy transfer at this time; I think of the battery as part of the power train’s fuel system - an energy storage device if you will, that hopefully will last the lifetime of the vehicle (200k+ miles in the Volt’s case) where as you are choosing to mix it in and compare it with the cost of the “fuel” itself. Should we include a gas car’s fuel system (tank, lines, pump, filters, fuel injectors, etc) as part of its lifetime fuel cost? Lord knows those things can need a lot of $ervice too over 200k miles…
The low cost of of electrically “fueling” the Volt is not such a big deal ONLY if you compare the Volt to vehicles that frankly, it just doesn’t compare with - lesser economy gas vehicles in terms of performance, handling, drive experience, etc. Beating a dead horse here, I know.
“focused on defending the Volt”
Isn’t that what the OP was asking for? 
“Did it occur to you that my comments about the “unique electric driving experience” my be directed at the many readers of the this discussion, and not you directly?”
No, not in a post that starts with calling me out by name.
“Should we include a gas car’s fuel system (tank, lines, pump, filters, fuel injectors, etc) as part of its lifetime fuel cost? Lord knows those things can need a lot of $ervice too over 200k miles”
Sure, why not? The items you list cost a heck of a lot less than $10,000 on the typical car or light truck, and the only fuel system service my '88 Accord needed over the 220K miles was a few filters.
Interesting…So let’s talk about the fueling an '88 Accord over 220K miles, let’s say 10-20 years for the sake of argument.
With an mpg of 25 and average gas price of $2/gal, that’s ~$17,500 spent on gas. Where as if a Volt-like vehicle had existed in that same era, driven 80% EV with electricity an average 10 cents a kWh, its total fuel cost would have been ~$9000, or $8500 less.
So EVs were harder to justify financially in those times, even if somehow the technology had been available at only ~$10k premium (remember the EV1, it was a $34k electric car at a time when you get a nice mid-size sedan for under $15k, ~$20k less)
Now let look to the future 10 to 20 years. Same 25 mpg vehicle versus an 80% EV, and the gas at an average $4.25 a gallon. The gas car will use ~$37,000 in fuel. Assuming average electric rates rise to $0.15/kWh average, EREV will use only ~$22,000 in combined fuel, or ~$15000 less.
This is where you can begin to see that paying 10 grand more (for a nicer to drive vehicle mind you) that ends up saving you ~$15k over 10 years might start to make sense in more ways than one. And with current discounts and credits, you might only pay ~$5k more for a Volt.
However if gas prices miraculously never again go above the current $3.75 a gallon, or even drop, those savings might shrink. I don’t see that happening, do you?
@aventineavenue
You actually took my comments about BMW owners trading for Volts seriously ? Oops.
Still, is this the real reason ?http://www.torquenews.com/1075/prius-most-traded-car-volt-and-leaf-because-hov-stickers
By the way. Less you think that the Volt is a series Hybrid all the time, it is not. At times it is a conventional parrallel hybrid and LESS efficient in doing so then a Prius. It operates to a varying degree like many other parallel, now plug in hybrids out there. So yes, you get your 40 miles on electric( until higher speeds, like a Prius). After that, it’s not really a range extender as their advertising would have you believe, but just another hybrid…and a poor one at that at 37 mpg. Worth all that money ? And again, all your savings are totally distance travel dependent. If you actually live close to work, you are still better off with a Leaf, now priced at about $22k with rebate.
But, it’s typical as since it’s intro that GM has been miss representing the car in it’s advertising. The Volt is just a plug in version of the “Johnny come lately hybrid” with no gain in overall performance v cost as attributed by it’s poor sales. The extra money ? Just gives you a bigger battery and a little more range…
And, that unique driving experience is enhanced by not being allowed to tow as most most other gas vehicles that size are not.
Real world mileage figures carrying loads, as most hybrids do, get closer to reality. So, for all that money, I want more then an entertaining dash board with a very limited and so called enhanced driving experience to justify getting one now common hybrid over another. The planetary gear set is just a more enhanced version of that on a Prius, slanted towards a bigger battery and motor. Would it have ever been developed without the long term success of the Prius ? Hardly.
@dagosa - the HOV stickers only affect California consumers’ behavior; there are still PLENTY of ex-BMW owners from other states who chose the Volt. The real reasons, as stated before, are that first and foremost a) The fell in love how the Volt drives, in close comparison to their previous rides; these folks are never going to settle for a Prius-like driving experience, not in a million years b) it saves them a ton of money in gas over their previous ride. You may not want to accept these facts, but sorry thems the facts, right from the horseys mouths. Sport+L= slot car like maneuvering in traffic; tight, road gripping left turns at 30 mph. These are things that BMWs and Volts can do, but Prius, Cruze, and most vehicles and $30k cannot. You don’t need to take my word for it.
@dagosa who wrote “…on electric( until higher speeds, like a Prius)”
This is incorrect. When in CD (Charge Depletion aka EV mode), the Volt the gasoline engine remains completely off for the purposes of providing any direct propulsion or creation of energy for propulsion. Unlike the Prius, the Volt has a large traction motor that alone seamlessly propels the vehicle from 0 mph all the way to 101 mph (where the electronic governor abruptly kicks in; not where peak power is reached). A Volt is “like a Prius” as a iPhone is “like a BlackBerry”.
You may have your facts about the Volt confused with the operation of the Prius, CMAX, etc, and all other currently offered vehicles classified as PHEVs (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles), as they all use small traction motors that in EV modes require (or request) the gas engine to kick in based ona demand for power that exceeds the limits of the EV portion of the power train, and/or climate control demand that exceeds the limits of the battery pack and/or needs to use gas engine power for a belt driven compressor or to produce manifold heat for the cabin. The Volt has none of these limitations nor requirements in CD mode.
The Volt answears a lot of questions I had about hybrids and addresses the shortcomings of the Prius in my opinion,Now what would be super nice,would be if you could power your home with the Volt in the event of a power outage(this thread has really got me thinking about a Volt)-Kevin
@aventineavenue
I guess you did not read the references…GM admits it operates as a parallel hybrid at times. You are contradicting the maker. The difference between the Prius and the Volt is NOT absolute. It’s by degree as the Volt has a larger electric motor and a bigger battery and delays when the gas motor is used as propulsion…but at some time, you need to accept that parallel propulsion is more efficient then series hybrid propulsion at higher loads and near battery depletion. Again, you are calling me incorrect when I’m just the bearer of the NEWS; your Volt is a Prius on steroids…nothing more, nothing less. And, the gas motor does help drive the car in some situations !! That makes it a PARALLEL hybrid.
Did you actually read the references ? A the very least, it is admission by GM they are using some false advertising when laiming the gas motor is nothing more then a range extender, the Plug In Prius can make the SAME claim, but only at lower speeds then the Volt ! The Volt makes this claim but only at speeds up to 70 mph and only before the battery has been depleted. Then it’s a parallel hybrid and the planetary gear set though not an exact copy of other hybrids, uses their technology in the SAME WAY to incorporate all potential drive sources, which at times INCLUDES the gas motor. We need to Deal with it !
BTW, being overwhelmed by the way a Volt drives and handles should not be taken as gospel by a Privious SUV and truck owner as my self which is the worse handling vehicle Toyota makes or a Previous Yaris owner, arguably, the worse car Toyota makes.
And @kevin, IMO, it does not address the short comings of the Prius as it gets MUCH worse mileage once the battery is depleted. It’s what I would call, a “sweet spot” car…running on battery for a while, then it becomes a less efficient parallel hybrid, something GM has had experience making while they have tried to compete for years now. Don’t take my word for it; take the word of all the non buyers of the poor selling Volt. It may in time become what GM intends; the ultimate lease and fleet car.
Let me explain for our readers how the Volt power train works, as no one who is educated about it thinks “that the Volt is a series Hybrid all the time” (straw man alert), or even really any of the time without being simplistic. dagosa may be beyond help in understanding the actual real-word operation and benefits of this design, and the radical difference and improvement over a Prius, but I’m going to hold out a sliver of hope! Also, please keep in mind my 2nd car is still a 2008 Gen II Prius (a daily driver for my spouse) so I am intimately familiar with the real-world operation of both vehicles.
The Volt is engineered as a pure BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) as described in my post just above; it will drive indefinitely as pure EV in Normal or (the super fun) Sport Mode as long as the state of charge of the battery stays above the battery longevity tested minimum percentage of ~15% (this looks like 0 on the battery graphic but is in fact ~15%) However once the gasoline engine has not been needed at all for 45 days, something called EMM (Engine Maintenance Mode) will be requested, and 0.03 gallons (less than 4 ounces) of gasoline will run the engine for about a minute or two. (You get plenty of warning on this, a chance to defer it to a little later, and it’s most efficient to just be driving (and not parked) as some fuel will then be used in a “series hybrid” way (see next post) and/or to charge the battery a bit, or for cabin heat, just like a regular car) Isn’t it nice to know a diagnostic and cleaning will run once every 1.5 months to green light the health of range extension feature? Annual gasoline usage: 0.25 gallons (one quart). That’s it for the Volt “EV mode”, indefinitely if you like. Pretty simple actually. I won’t go in to how the “BEV Volt” ingeniously handles extreme cold weather events that would shrivel up the you-know-what of most EVs and even hybrids; a topic for another post.
@aventineavenue
With all due respect…let the GM engineers explain how the Volt drive train works in the diagrams and article contributed to by GM itself. Motor Trend and other car test mags who have taken the time to figuatively, tear the car apart forced the hand of GM to come clean…your info appears to come from the owners manual…or source designed to hide the real facts…it’s a parallel hybrid. And, as the owner of a second Gen Prius, you know that it is more efficient after 30 miles…true or false. And remains so till you plug your Volt in ! GM adversed the car as an EV with a range extender…that is a series hybrid. Now they say, well, not all the time. The same can be said for a plug in Prius !
And, you couch all your remarks on the fact that the battery has to remain charged for a period of time and the car driven in a particular high torque mode. THE SAME CAN BE SAID FOR A PLUG IN PRIUS WHEN DRIVEN WITH A FULLY CHARGED BATTERY and in eco mode as can other plug in hybrids. The buyer has spoken and there are fewer takers out there. A Volt is a plug in hybrid…no more, no less !
Theoretically, using your limited discription, I could take a manual transmission car, put it in gear and crank the starter motor so it moved the car and then declare it was a Revolutionary EV with a range extender gas motor.
And, here is a cost per mile comparison of one car over another…
As you can see, it all depends upon how you drive the car…
That does not make the Volt revolutionary nor does hiding the fact that it is a parallel hybrid some of the time.
Bottom line…the car only is revolutionary…for 30 miles ! BD, the Leaf is a real EV for 70 miles .
BTW, does your Volt require preminums gas v Plug in Prius regular ? And equating the handling of a fwd Volt with a rwd BMW says little about actual driving abilities of anyone who would declare a Volt as a car can handle in a way that real BMW owners value their cars for. If you commute in a Volt Sweet spot, it is perhps, well worth the investment. Time will tell, not temporary hyperboles.
,Now what would be super nice,would be if you could power your home with the Volt in the event of a power outage(this thread has really got me thinking about a Volt)-Kevin
I remember a Top Gear segment a few years ago showing off the Hy-Wire concept by GM. It was a hydrogen car that could move the steering wheel to either side of the car with a flip of a switch, you could get a couple different bodies for it, too. They also said how it could hook to your house and work as a generator
@dagosa who wrote " let the GM engineers explain how the Volt drive train works in the diagrams and article contributed to by GM itself"
Well I would just do that if you didn’t keep explaining it incorrectly, with the wrong information, and misleading out readers. I will explain in my next longer post how GM’s decision to allowing engine latching (the very rare condition you keep trying to haul out as some “parallel hybrid” smoking gun) as well documented, was an afterthought engineering choice to increase efficiency 7 to 10% in steady-state/speed driving…So that EPA could be ~37 instead of ~34.