Anti-Lock Brakes on an icy hill

General Discussion
41

I’m not sure why we are having this discussion? Certainly there are disadvantages as well as advantages with ABS. That’s all anyone was saying. So siting a hundred sources all saying the same thing doesn’t really change much. The main point was that ABS can INCREASE stopping distances in some cases. Granted it can help maintain control while panic stopping but to a skilled and experienced driver, may be of little benefit. Just seems like a perfectly logical conclusion with no need to argue. I like my wife to have ABS and have no intention of disconnected it, but at least concede there may be disadvantages to experienced drivers.

The winter tire test in northern Minnesota is somewhat of a joke. Winter tires are great on snow and ice but unless you are driving on a frozen lake in Minnesota, the percent of time on snow or ice is greatly reduced. Unless you live in the boonies, most winter driving is on bare pavement where winter tires have little additional benefit. Yup, in a snow storm, ice storm, and before roads are plowed, or around town, great. But most Minnesotans are driving on clear pavement the majority of the winter.

I just found it humorous to suggest putting steel wheels on a $50,000 car from Thanksgiving to Easter to run winter tires on. Like who is going to do that from a practical standpoint? Maybe the same people that used to have a summer car and a winter car. Yeah sure, use the beater in the winter when your life can depend on whether it stalls or not in 20 below temps.

42

The OP is most likely wondering why he even asked his question here.

43

My first vehicle with ABS was a 1990 Ford Aerostar, but the ABS was only on the rear wheels. It took me a while to get used to this system, but it seem to keep the rear of.the van under control on stops.

44

@Bing‌
Can increase stopping distances in some situations is a far cry from :smile:
In most driving situations that do not involve granular surfaces, abs does decrease stopping distances. That is the majority of driving that one does.

"Most winter driving is done on bare pavement where winter tires have little additional effect"
Cold weather braking is shorter with winter tires on bare wet pavement in temps below 40 degrees and in severe cold, some of the highest ranked winter tries can reduce braking on cold dry pavement. This is all because of the softer rubber and design.

45

Apparently, ABS reduces your chance of being in a multiple-car accident but increases your chance of being in a single-car accident and the net benefit is minimal. I guess having ABS allows drivers to successfully steer around a potential impact with another vehicle, go off the road, and crash into stationary objects or roll. This is exactly what happened when my daughter rolled a Chevy Blazer. (Luckily, she was unhurt.)

46

“The OP is most likely wondering why he even asked his question here.”

Gotta agree with that. ABS is a good thing and winter tires are a good thing, generally but not the end all. One of my worst drive homes was in a blinding snow storm. I thought I had left early to avoid the storm but drove right into it. I tried to pull off but there was no place to safely do it so I had to keep on going. Couldn’t see due to the snow. I had to roll the window down to look at the weeds in the ditch to judge where I was on the road. Still I just had to keep plugging along at 20 plus MPH for 15 miles to the next exit with a truck stop. Didn’t need ABS and my all seasons kept me going, but if you can’t see it doesn’t matter if you have ABS or not or winter tires.

47

“I’m such a good driver that I don’t need ABS…or air bags…or seat belts…and on some days I can even get by without tires. Everyone on the road should learn to be as good at driving as I am.” That’s more or less the argument against every car safety feature ever invented. Anecdotal evidence is routinely trotted out to support these arguments. Science does not work this way. If you don’t like safety features that have been added to cars I completely understand and support your right to dislike them. On the other hand, the overwhelming scientific evidence supports the effectiveness of modern car safety features. I would never give up my ABS, traction control, VSC, seat belts, airbags, back up camera, or crumple zones. They have all proven quite useful. I’m getting older but I am not too grouchy and I guess I have to agree with @Dagosa on this one.

48

“Where is your proof ? Any references ?”

I WATCHED the video when it was posted here (the Tire co. one about “good tires to back”). You can clearly see the car, careening out of its lane via oversteer, without ANY opposite steering input as the (F1 driver) would be, if he were attempting to “recover” from the skid.

AND AGAIN in the video YOU JUST POSTED, from 1:23 to 1:33 the driver makes NO EFFORT to modulate braking; i.e. he was a TRAINED DRIVER ATTEMPTING TO CAUSE THE CAR TO CAREEN OUT OF CONTROL. You can CLEARLY see the front right tire locks, and stays locked for 8 seconds (if the camera cuts are accurate.)

If it’s THAT patent, there’s no point in pointing out the obvious!

And as for your “sources,” you are AGAIN overstating their position, as you most recently, laughably, did with that “Individual Shared Responsibility Payment” not being mandatory (i.e. line 61 on the 2014 IRS 1040.)

As you can see:

It turns out that all-season tires are fine in warmer months, but in the snow, they lack traction compared with dedicated snow tires

It does NOT say all-terrains are UNSAFE; it says they aren’t AS CAPABLE in snow as snow tires. Thank you, Captain Obvious!

What remains unstated is: are they “good enough?” After all, the Corvette was, for a long time, the car with the lowest C/G relative to track (excluding exotics). by that logic, my car is “rollover-prone” compared to a Corvette. That said, my car is certainly “good enough.” And, I would say all-terrains can be “good enough.” (They are on my Cobalt; they aren’t on my F150…at least, for me).

And–LMAO–I’m a “partisan” for suggesting people quit being FIXATED on safety doo-hickeys and prioritize “adjusting the nut behind the wheel?!?” Well, if improving skills is wrong…I don’t want to be right!

(Of course, as sole possessor of The Truth and The Light, this should have been apparent to you already…)

49

“Science does not work this way.”

No…how SCIENCE works, is you set up an experiment, subject to certain assumptions and modeling limitations, run it, and try to determine exactly what the data is telling you…ALL of which are subject to “human factors” re: what exactly it shows, and to whom it is relevant.

For instance: it’s pretty easy to see where ABS increases safety for a very unskilled driver; one who has never skidded a car intentionally, and has no clue what is happening, or how to recover, when it does. Any downsides that ABS may or may not have…are dwarfed by the benefit it provides to a driver of this skill level.

It’s also clear that benefits diminish as the driver in question becomes more skilled, or more experienced. Is there, possibly, a skill level at which the ABS downsides exceed the upside? I dunno! (And equally clear…you’ll never find out by running experiments involving “average American motorists!”)

An experiment involving the Mythical Average Motorist is valid for all Average Motorists. The more one’s personal skill set is an “outlier” to the experiment…the less valid the experiment is!

50

@meanjoe75fan - Well, a science EXPERIMENT works the way you describe. Science uses empirical observation and interpretation of data. It is not precise and is subject to observational and prejudicial bias HOWEVER, it is usually more accurate than anecdotal evidence which is simply based on experience of one person in limited or single incidents. As a scientist I can never tell you that your experience is not VALID but, using science, I can tell you that it is not scientifically significant.

The reality here is that the argument against safety features is that better drivers shouldn’t need them, don’t want them and they hinder the safe operation of a motor vehicle. So the core of every argument against things like ABS is that we need to make other drivers better. Have you seen how bad drivers these days are? Do you really believe that we can make even the MAJORITY of drivers better? Watching the drivers next to me text, shave, read books, and hunt for what I can only assume are gold coins on the floor of their cars at 80 mph I would have to say that I am thankful for every safety feature added to cars, even if they represent an inconvenience to the handful of better drivers (which I count myself among).

51
Well, a science EXPERIMENT works the way you describe. Science uses empirical observation and interpretation of data. It is not precise and is subject to observational and prejudicial bias

That is a very broad and in most cases very inaccurate. In college and in work I’ve worked on many scientific experiments…and not one of them were subject to observational and prejudicial bias…The experiments had very very precise calculated outcome. There was no interpretation…it either met the calculated data or it didn’t. There was no grey data that could possible be interpreted any other way. Science is usually very very precise with very little room for interpretation.

52

“I watched the video” Re"Are you referring to those doctored tests where they hire race car drivers and instruct them not to correct for oversteer?

The Tire Rack tests were also included as references on utube, they showed the same results.

So, in essence, watching a video and drawing a conclusion that Tire Rack “instructed” their drivers to intentionally cheat on the results of an experiment which in term, would call to suspicion just about every test they have ever done and make all your fellow posters incorrect in their using Tire Rack demos. Are you willing to live with the ramifications of that accusation ? You are calling Tire Tack “cheaters” . Are you wiling to come to that conclusion with no actual documentation and no real reference.

There are a plethora conspiracy types who came to incorrect conclusions about the twin towers too based upon what they they wanted to see. Just asking if you have any real proof. These are really strong claims to besmirch the reputation of Tire Rack.

53

Science can be very precise in the results of the experiments they set up to prove or disprove theories. I have found that it is not the accuracy of the results in the experiments that sometimes caused the problems. It was more often, the experiment itself and how closely it represents the situation you are trying to replicate. Hence, in automotive and other fields, there is a valid reason for long term field testing. They some times reveal the weaknesses of the original experiment where the actual results of the experiment are seldom in question. There is sometimes, no way of accounting for all of the conditions you wish replicate in an experiment of a real life situation. That’s why I hesitate to buy a new model of a car in the first her or two of production.

54

@MikeinNH - I should have been more precise. Science is extremely precise but the observation of facts can be subject to observational and prejudicial bias. That is why experiments, carefully controlled, can be so precise, but data collected in the field, outside of an experiment, can be difficult to control.

55
Science is extremely precise but the observation of facts can be subject to observational and prejudicial bias.

Again I have to take issue with. Almost all scientific experiments were not up for interpretation. They were calculated results…so if the experiment math worked out then it was a success…no if and or buts…It either met the criteria or it didn’t. I agree that things like biological sciences (and others)…that there is a lot of interpretation going on.

56

A well constructed scientific experiment has results that are decisive, verifiable and consistent with the inputs in all fields. It’s failing to exactly match an experiment every single time with a real life application that can sme times cause problems and not the experiment itself. That is why we follow up experiments with “prototypes” and “field tests” to account for these discrepancies.

If there is any " interpretation" going on that negatively affects the quality of a product, it’s seldom with the experiment but with the desire to short circuit the entire process and jump to a final product before enough " appropriate" experimentation and field testing has been done. This can happen in ALL fields.

57

It’s failing to exactly match an experiment every single time with a real life application that can sme times cause problems and not the experiment itself.

Only one thing matches “real life” and that is real life. Everything else is some limited subset designed to capture what people believe/speculate is the relevant variation. There is one universal truth about modeling- all models are wrong but some are useful. The biggest trap is placing too much trust in your model. I see that happen on a daily basis.

If humans could model, analyze and experiment away all unknowns, there would never be a surprise during life testing. Speaking of which, even that is shortcut by using HALT and other ways of abbreviating “real life” in order to get to market while the product is still viable and able to make a profit…

58

This is getting way too scientific. Maybe we should give this one a rest. Seems to me the best thing for the OP is to go down the driveway using ABS and not using ABS to see what works best in his situation. A few real life experiments should provide him with the best technique to use. Otherwise most of the chatter here is irrelevant to the original question.

59

ABS studies in the real world:

http://www.google.com/search?q=abs+brakes+study&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&oq=abs+brakes+study&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...6733.9015.0.9082.7.7.0.0.0.0.408.1766.1j0j2j1j2.6.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.5.1357.Lug1aBdii-0

60

Well I guess the general conclusions were that there has been an increase in single vehicle, run off the road, accidents since ABS was added. The reasons are inconclusive. If you were driving in Ohio, you had your speed and license tag monitored and then your VIN determined to see if you had ABS and what your speed was. Highly intrusive I would suggest. I would suggest a 5th possible reason and that is the surprise factor. The rapid pumping action of the pedal in a panic situation “might” tend to cause the driver to panic and get off the brakes, thus negating both the benefits of ABS and brakes period.

At any rate we have succeeded in providing a multi-million dollar employment package to the folks studying the whole issue. A good thing. Keeping them from maybe less productive uses of their time and resources.

Not to change the subject too much but Minnesota made seat belt use a primary violation which means that police can stop a person for not wearing belts. (I always wear belts BTW) It was the dying wish of the person in charge of traffic safety literally. This morning on a discussion of the concerns of Black Lives Matter and police brutality, it was suggested that this law played right into the hands of the police since they now can stop anyone for pretty much any perceived violation. “Oh I thought you didn’t have your belts on. Mind getting out of your car while we search it?” Unintended consequences strikes again. All they’ll smell from my car is tobacco smoke but that may become a felony at some point.