Anti-Lock Brakes on an icy hill

But . . but. . .but.

Wil all due respect Same, to start a dissertation about ice performance of an enhanced Corolla on ice in varying winter conditions with or without winter tires and abs…with “it isn’t the tires” contradicts not only my opinion but that of the majority all the posters who have ever driven in snow. Trust me, I am listening . Then when you tell someone else you have perhaps, more experience then they, especially on ice ( far more) …which you did with me without knowing mine, also begs a response. I do snow removal and sanding both professionally and personally on tarred roads, and unpaved on steep inclines and I live with a frost convered unpaved 3 mile total mountain road every day during the winter. We even drive and raced on our lake outside my house and elsewhere. I have posted as a reference just part of the mountain road (1.5) going out on Utube that I work on and have to negotiate every single day. No one around here drives a “Corolla” with all season tires…they don’t work even with abs and traction control. Heck, even winter tires are useless most of the time in these cars here.

@sgrtrock21.
I agree. As you have aptly stated, one of the very best things you can do is to initially control your speed going down a hill on ice. Nothing beats a Manual transmissions. They do an excellent job at that for us here. . But, as an addendum, we all know, once the speed gets too great, engine braking on just two wheels can be very problematic for we driving in and out in the winter. Then, abs on all four wheels becomes the best alternative. We are always at the mercy of the traction between the ice and tires and gravity and speed are two really big Enemys on our steep hills.
Cursing and swearing are sometimes helpful too it seems, but ultimatly we all resort to the same thing…prayer.

I lived on a downhill driveway, with the driveway facing South so the snow would melt a bit during the day and refreeze at night. Often the car wanted to slide down the hill after having fully stopped. You could stop, then hold the brakes and you’d still slide down the hill. I had a Volvo wagon then, and the only thing that worked fully was to open the tail gate, back down the driveway with my son sitting in the open back with a big bucket of sand or coal ash, and he would throw that stuff on the ground as I backed down hill.

One thing that helped was to put the car in neutral rather than drive (automatic transmission). In cold weather even at idle the automatic would try to push the car downhill, and I was fighting with it.

The other thing that worked was to keep trees and walls away from the driveway, and just let it slide. By jolting the brakes I could throw it off course enough to hit the snow banks on the side or just slide off on to the earth, off the pavement, and the car would stop. Then you figure out how to aim further down hill, and try again.

Or, park at the bottom and walk up with snow shoes or spikes that strap under your shoes.

Wentwest…
Exactly. Some of the worse conditons is when tempeatures suddenly chnge as in your case, snow melt then later freeze. Especially bad on hills where water flow can make very smooth ice. The day before yesterday, , we had light rain at the end of the day after a five inch snow, followed by a drop to 0 degrees several hours later. What did not evaporate, froze. Had an 8 am appointment I had to leave at 7 am for. Put the ice grippers on for the struggle to the truck with studded snows and sand bags in the back, put it in 4 wd and spin your way out for a mile and a half and pray no one else is headed in at the same time sideways. Mornings can be real tough anywhere in these conditons. Thanks for the first half mile being all uphill and not down. When it’s like this, we, like you, we always drive with two wheels in the snow.

This is your word agaisnt Tire Rack and the dozen or so tests on UTUBE that all show that when winter tires are tested agaisnt all season tires, abs is ineffective in helping a car maintain course when turning on ice with all season tires.

Are you referring to those doctored tests where they hire race car drivers and instruct them not to correct for oversteer?

All of the modern hoopla re: best tires on back, snows on back, yada, yada, is…most people stink at controlling oversteer. Apparently, they stink a lot more than they used to, or at least a lot more than we used to assume they did. By making already understeer-biased cars MORE likely to understeer (and by adding electro-nannies on the car to override the driver should he intentionally dial some oversteer in)…we’ve virtually eliminated occasions in which oversteer should be encountered.

Now, OTOH…instead of the “PC nanny-state” sloution, there’s another solution: resolve not to [stink] at driving! That’s hard, if not impossible, to implement on a nation-wide basis; heck, the leader of the free world couldn’t even get folks to “turn the thermostat down to 68F and put a sweater on already!” BUT, that doesn’t mean YOU can’t easliy do it on a PERSONAL basis!

Yes, mean I am mistakenly referring to all those “doctored tests.” “Where they hire all those race car drivers and instruct hem not to correct them for over steer”. My mistake. A revelation I did not see.

Please forgive me (or anyone else) for ever using Tire Rack as a Reference…really ?

And all we have to do is teach everyone to correct for over steer ? Hmmmm. And I thought that the inability of a car to make a corner on ice…and continue to plow through the corner, was under steer. I will have to relearn that concept.

Back in the mid 80’s we did a winter scout camp in Wisconsin. I had my diesel Olds. We came to a big long hill going down to the cabins below and proceeded down the icy hill. When we got to the bottom the guy in charge had a fit and said didn’t you see the sign that said 4 wheel drive only beyond this point? We unloaded and I simply drove back up the hill and parked. My RWD, posi traction, and Goodyear all seasons did the job, no prob.

Bing. You are absolutly right. I can’t speak for others but when you live on a long narrow dirt road that has hills and slippery conditons, you

</block quote> discourage people who have two wheel drives from going there. Why ? Even if some can make it in and out, a stuck 2wd taking up enough of the road so no one can pass, which often happens, is impassible for others, even with 4 wd to get out. It’s not fair for visitors some times but the people who must leave ust don’t want to deal with the problem. And under most conditions you encounter in these places, 4 wd is much more capable then 2 wd.

That’s the way it is around here. If anyone had not been able to make out where we live and got stuck, you will have dozen people trying to go to work in their 4 wd all really PO’d at you. That seems unfair for some capable drivers like you, but that’s the reason for it around here and I know how you feel but can sympathize with the sign.

Some years back I was invited to a house warming for a guy that turns out owned a plumbing company. The driveway was fairly short but treacherous steep down to the garage. I mentioned it might be a bear dealing with that in the winter and he smiled and pointed to a switch on the wall…hydronic heated driveway. Must be rough…

Dag, I treat people with the same respect with which they treat me. Has it ever occurred to you that I too am a driver who has driven in snow?
I’m sick of you telling me what I think, what I said, who I am, that I lack experience, and all the other BS you spout out. A while back I described the condition of my car and you told me I was wrong, that my car had more rust on it than I thought, but I just didn’t realize it.

I believe ABS is highly overrated. Others agree with me, apparently including the person who started this thread who described a similar problem to the one I have on the hill I described. To tell me that it’s because I have the wrong tires or lack experience when you know absolutely nothing about my tires (at the time you wrote that) or my experience is unmitigated arrogant BS. It’s “talking down” to me, when you know nothing about me. I don’t like it, and I won’t tolerate it without a response. You’ve acted like this time and time again. It’s time you grow up and learn that you don’t know everything.

I’m going to try to make this simple for you. I believe ABS is highly overrated. I have a hill by my house on which I have a problem very much like the one described by the OP when it gets icy that is caused by the ABS. Your telling me that it’s because I have the wrong tires when you know nothing about my tires, and your telling me I lack experience, again when you do not know what you’re talking about, is just plain arrogant and ignorant.

I’ve said my last word in this thread. You may attack me, belittle me, twist my words as you so often do, or do whatever makes you feel like a man. It will change nothing. Have a ball. Me, I’m fed up with your crap.

Same, you are the one who first claimed to have more experience, I simply responded with mine, you are the one calling someone else who disagrees, BS. arrogant and ignorant…that isn’t nice. I have been fact focused with references to tests by Tire Rack and all others and II never said you were wrong. You need to show me those quotes. I said and still maintain based upon the tests that appear, that abs cannot be evaluated on ice with all season tires. That you disagree with that is no concern to me. It just means to me, that is not the unchallenged advice I would give out to OP. You keep wanting to make it personal. Just because I don’t roll over and agree with everything you say, does not make me disagreeable. Friends can and do disagree without name calling. I listed my experience only because you did yours and said it was more than mine on ice. I make no claim about who has more, just that I feel I agree more with fact based evidence. Abs works as intended when used with tires that give suitable grip on ice. They work with all season tires but only very well in conditions they can maintain traction enough to utilize. No, BS, no name calling, no claims of experience, just a disagreement. Btw, I go out now for an appointment. Please, clean up your act.

As we have discussed many many times before, the decision to buy winter tires really is a cost/benefit decision. Most of us do not live on mountains with long steep driveways. I’m a few blocks from the freeway which is clear pavement 98% of the time. There are a few times it would be nice to have winter tires or chains, but not enough to justify the $2000 cost and storage issue. Plus what do ya do when ya trade cars with two sets of tires? Just impractical for many of us that live in reasonably populated areas and can choose when we go or not.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t ABS units have a speed below which they do not work? Wouldn’t that apply to someone with a steep driveway?

Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t ABS units have a speed below which they do not work? Wouldn’t that apply to someone with a steep driveway?

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/equipment/absbrakes.html

You are exactly right and that was a point I made initially. It was also the response I got from the dealer I bought my cars from. Even this publication says it activates at speeds above 10 mph, usually. Below that, they perform like ordinary brakes. I found pumping at lower speeds can help, but most effective if you have winter tires. Change the road surface (sand) and change the tires (winter) are alternatives at lower speeds.

As we have discussed many many times before, the decision to buy winter tires really is a cost/benefit decision.
100% agree…all tire selections are.

How about some good old fashioned rock salt on the driveway?

How about some good old fashioned rock salt on the driveway?
Apology for responding to each comment but I did (and still do part time winter road maintenance for our road association and business contract work) this for a living for twenty years. I am also DEP certified with courses from the state DOT which allows me to do road management. Rock salt is excellent as is sand. The very best and cheapest for a long drive as it doesn’t wash out as easily…is good processed or quality bank run gravel.

It is a messy clean up on a hot top drive in the spring, but it does a yoeman’s job of minimizing repeated applications. Mix it with your rock salt and it’s great. On highways and paved roads it’s a no no because it can crack windshields when used.

@dagosa I agree! If you have a driveway that steep, you should use a de-icer, such as a mixture of calcium chloride and sodium chloride (salt). I would spread some sand as well.

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx

Just like the sun rising and setting, every year this time when driving conditons become more treacherous, abs becomes the whipping boy of the anti govt. Mandate crowd along with those who just believe the repeated bias out of convenience.

Abs has been around since 1929 and was originally used to help airplanes stop straighted and shorter. Everyone one here who flys might have been been saved from injury and not know it. For many years it has allowed planes to use runways in conditions that other wise would have forced them to other destinations in bad weather. Even motorcycle riders where braking on two wheels is extremely problematic benefit from abs and have Bought models on their reason alone. Still, the politics of abs in the car field lingers.

Anti abs sentiment lingers to the point of making false statements without referencing research what so ever that can be supported or contradicted, but couched in personal opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but supporting it with false statements should always be challenged where safe driving is concerned.

-Abs was never designed to decrease stopping distance
-It doesn’t matter what tires you use
-Tests are falsified
-Anyone can stop a car better if they just “learn to drive”
-And on and on…

These are just some of the false, unverified claims.

Some more truthful statements are:

-The coefficient of friction does change for the worse for a locked wheel on most surfaces we drive and a cars stopping distance is shorter and with more control on these surfaces with abs

-tires do matter and can transform any system, car and driver capability dramatically depending upon the surface. Nothing works the way it should including the system, car and driver without the appropriate tries. Tires always matter and they are very specific to the conditon.

-Stopping distance can be greater on some surfaces where different conditons do occur and particals can build up in front of the tires and help stop distance some what.

-Abs does not work and was not designed to work at lower speeds, usually less then 10 mph

-abs and it’s related functions are under revisiting and improvement by manufacturers.

And there are others. Some of these True statements and claims do make abs less then ideal. The false claims though are all couched in a general fashion to stretch the truth beyound believability for those who actually use science. False statements made often enough…can seem true.

Personally, I don’t care and these statements don’t bother me. What I do care about after having been professionally involved in a number of accident investigations and the injuries and deaths that go with them, is that we support safe practices and equipment, regardless of how they get to our cars, and if we don’t, we back it up with scientific evidence and not politics. That’s what the Cartalk Forum should be about for those who care about safe driving.

If there is a fault to be found with govt. in the use of abs and it’s related functions, stability and traction control, it’s that it did not appear soon enough on all of our cars and trucks. Some day, I feel most will come around in full support and speak out about false claims concerning abs.

These are just some of the false, unverified claims.

Some more truthful statements are:

Where do you get your True Prophet complex, where you imagine you are the sole possessor of The Truth and The Light, and all your lessers struggle in the darkness without it?!? You act like you PERSONALLY climbed The Mountain and spoke to The Dude…


As just an example of how absurd such a claim is:

The coefficient of friction does change for the worse for a locked wheel on most surfaces we drive and a cars stopping distance is shorter and with more control on these surfaces with abs

The GIANT assumption take there (that you have conveniently chosen not to mention) is that you ARE ASSUMING the non-ABS vehicle will be operated WITH LOCKED WHEELS. If the driver has ANY SKILLS WHATSOEVER, driver will employ THRESHOLD BRAKING, making the difference in friction coefficients, between locked and rolling wheels, moot.


So, why don’t you step off of your soap box for a bit?

Re; Tire Rack abs test ( one of if not the most quoted reference by your fellow members on this board regarding tires and their performance) (meanjoe75fan)Are you referring to those doctored tests where they hire race car drivers and instruct them not to correct for oversteer?
Where is your proof ? Any references ?

Re; agenda…self explanatory
(meanjoe75fan)Now, OTOH…instead of the “PC nanny-state” sloution, there’s another solution: resolve not to [stink] at driving!

(meanjoe75fan)Where do you get your True Prophet complex,
And when you are through looking, I can give you a few more. Tell me what type of sources you WILL accept.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/equipment/absbrakes.html

http://www.sdt.com.au/safedrive-directory-ABSBRAKES.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2012/04/the-most-valuable-motorcycle-feature-antilock-brakes/index.htm

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