American Know-how

It is now Happy Holidays. If you try to make it religious or non religious you are wrong. Shut Up and accept it. I don’t think I will because of that stupid outdated constitution thing I swore to protect and defend against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC!

In front of our public library is a near life sized nativity scene, as it has been for at least the last 50 years. There was a stink about it some years ago but the library won because it was a donated building. I forget the history of the nativity figures. Something special though. South of here in Iowa was the German POW base camp. In their spare time, one of the things they did was hand carve a nativity scene. It was meaningful to them, and had a mens choir Christmas concert. We should allow and celebrate things that are meaningful to people.

Oh oh, to add cars, we drove to Algona to see the base camp museum after taking in the old car show, Cruise Around the Lake, in Clear Lake and viewing the Surf where Buddy Holly last performed and driving out to the crash site not far from there. Its interesting if you are ever in the area.

One of the biggest drivers of technical and academic achievement…is the military. This is one of the reasons I have always felt that even though there seems no apparent need ( I feel there is) we make mandatory service to our country in some way shape or form for everyone, including combat or combat support for both male and female. My neighbor got his medical degree and his son is following in his footsteps using funding from the Department . of Defense. Of couse he will own time after he finishes…but that’s great. Every doctor owes “time” regardless paying off his/her loans. There is something to be said for young males serving their country after Highschool and then going to college as well. The skills in the military mimic those in the civilian world in many ways.

IMho, not only would it expand out technical preparedness, but it would make our country stronger and politicians would make better decisions if everyone one of them have some service experience. Having medical and combat training skills for everyone serves some of us well after our stints. Having someone screaming in your ear at 3:30 am is good prep for getting up and going to work every day. It made me appreciate the out of doors, lie down and sleep anywhere anytime, and be ready at a moments notice to do hard physical work. These are skills that are not the obvious training skills you get at a school but a foundation that will stay with you the rest of your life and allow you to adapt to different situations.

Nothing makes a person appreciate the rest of the world and the people in it more then the stress and strain of training and traveling in the military. Having said that, nothing in the military was as hard as far as physical training was concened was as college football for me. The difference is, no one was shooting at you and you got to take a shower afterwards.

Stressing one religious preference over another inhibits the developement of skills and know how that America needs to compete in the world.

Forcing everyone to participate in Christmass in schools or public settings goes against our personal freedom. A libertarian would allow everyone their personal freedom, not to have to be in a situation that only gave space and opportunity for one set of beliefs alone. That our country is suppose to be allowed to celebrate Christian holidays in public settings without allowing the opportunity for our Jewish, Muslim or atheist friends the same opportunity goes agaisnt all that a libertarian should stand for…personal freedom. My best friend is a Jew and I DONOT insist that he celebrate the holidays the same as I, nor do I force him into a situation where my preferences don’t give equal opportunity for his. If there is not enough time in the day, space or opportunity to allow these individual freedoms or celebration, there should be none at all.

So really, the laws are slowly evolving into just what a social libertarian would prefer. That is genisis of not allowing the celebration of Chrismass in some situations. How " cruel " is it for a young child raised a devote Jew to be let out of math class, loose some of his valuable study time to develope skills he needs to pursue his dreams…to go to the gym and be forced to listen to Christmass carols. Or just as bad, be told, " if you don’t want to, go to the library and sit alone." We could be slowly loosing a entire group of people who could help make America a better place as well as the efforts of those who do celebrate the holidays in a more traditional manner.

Yesterday was Hanukuh, and soon it will be Christmas. Let’s not change the names of traditional holidays because of so-called political correctness. We lived in Malaysia, a country with 3 main cultures (non-Christian), and they got equal time. They even had Christmas as a holiday, largely because of the British colonial era and the many Western expatriates living there.

“Forcing everyone to participate in Christmass in schools or public settings goes against our personal freedom.”

I disagree. IMHO you have it backwards. BANNING someone’s celebration of their holiday beliefs against our personal freedoms. And that action is exactly what Article I of the Bill of Rights was written to protect against… the banning of one person’s celebration by another of different beliefs.

NOT FORCING someone is NOT the same as BANNING.

I have no problem with Christmas celebration in public schools…just as long as the kids aren’t FORCED to celebrate.

In our school system, no one is forced to participate in any celebration if the don’t want to. They go to the Principal’s office. Not as a punishment, which is why I always went, but just for supervision. As you may know, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t celebrate anything. If something is labeled a celebration, the kids are aoutomaticlly sent to the office. The only kids in the school my wife taught in that were Jehovahs Witnesses were black. They could not celebrate Martin Luther King because of that. I always found it curious that the events on his birthday were called a celebration rather than a commemoration. But maybe that is a code word for celebration.

if one does not get that your right to free expression in a govt. sponsored Setting, ends when you begin violating the rights of others, then you need to rethink your understanding of the constitution.
Because this is a thread on American no how which to mean, always includes education, that is the primary focus of the setting.

YOU ACTUALLY DISAGREE WITH THAT SATEMENT. please re read it. It is not an outlandish statement.
Do you actually think it is OK to “force” everyone to participate in a Christmass clebration.

Well gee, you don’t have to like it but at least spell it right.

Thanks. Glad to see my spelling is that important to you. Yours now is to me. ;()

both parties are obsolete and harmful to our wonderful constitution and our cars, I think.

independent I began, and independent I ll stay, as far as political parties go that is…

Yep, some comment in the Washington Post essentially said there are 30-40% on the left that aren’t going to change and there are 30-40% on the right that aren’t going to change. So its up to us 20-40% that flip flop back and forth to make the decisions based on what’s good for the country.

Dag, you’re right in that I miswrote what I actually meant. When it comes to articulating my thoughts, I really blew that one. Mike got it right. No, I do not think it’s okay to force someone to participate, but I also don’t think banning the celebration because one person with different beliefs who doesn’t even have to participate might feel uncomfortable is right either. I would argue that forcing the banning of the celebration is exactly what Article I is intended to prohibit.

Forcing someone to participate is just as bad as banning the celebration because one person doesn’t want to participate. In the particular cases currently ongoing, the latter is what’s happening. Article I was never intended to require banning a celebration because an individual was uncomfortable with the practice. It was meant to protect the right to have that celebration while at the same time prohibiting the forcing of anyone to participate. And, it also protects the right of that individual and others who believe as he/she does to celebrate in their own manner… or not celebrate at all.

I know this is really getting off the subject but . . . The framers had particular fears in mind which is why things were written in a particular way. After living in France as Ambassador, Jefferson was adamant that we not make the same mistakes. Then if you look at the implementation of communism in E. Europe after the war, there were universal things that were done to placate the people or reduce their ability to object. A main one was elimination of the churches, then centralizing the educational system, then reducing private business, then confiscating guns, then reducing private property ownership, and so on. That’s why some of us are concerned when there is any infringement, regardless of how seemingly inconsequential. In a couple generations it can be a completely different country.

Now I’ve got to go check the oil and get gas while the price is still down.

Additionally, the colonies formed as clusters of religious beliefs, and had they not be guaranteed protection against government interference of their celebrations of their religious practices, the colonies would not have ratified the constitution. Many of the protections in the original 10 Articles were there to get the colonies to ratify the document. Were these rights not guaranteed, we might not have a country!

Same We absolutly agree about this stuff in general on a personal basis because I have heard where you are comming form on other threads. In our paper today, citizens were complaining that some retail stores were pasting Christmass and Christian content on their display windows. Imo, that’s where the complainers have their say …they can complain all they want, they can boycott the store they can write an editorial…but they can’t prevent a private person or even a business from exercising their rights. It doesn’t infringe on theirs as they can go anywhere else to shop. Student can’t go anywhere else for an education and everyone, even a non Christian is paying taxes.

The teachers and administrators are employees of the town. These schools I worked at were all careful to celebrate the Holidays as holidays. Even the music teacher, a good working friend at the time and a devote Christian at the last school taught for 25 years, was very careful to be neutral about the music he selected to entertain the students during “the holiday” season at assemblies. Of course, we had a very diverse community and it was natural to work that way. The school was mandated to provide prayer group opportunities in separate rooms for anyone who wished to do so.

So, can a student celebrate Christmass as a Christian holiday as an individual, even in a school setting, and at our school ? Of course. But, it was never the official position of the school to ever organize them. Any student was allowed that opportunity and even guided in setting up these opportunities. Heck, we had groups of kids form the chorus who organized themselves and voluntarily sang Christmass carols…even in the lunch room. With an open campus and opportunity for those who didn’t want to listen to leave and eat elsewhere, it was never a problem. So, it wasn’t as restrictive as it sounds, nor does it have to be.

I’m checking in for the first time since early this morning, so I missed a lot and it may be a little late. Could you please bring this back on topic somehow? Thank you.

Per cdaquila’s request…

An interesting book about how the U.S. auto industry and suppliers along with other industries geared up to WWII war production and then transitioned back to post war consumer products production is “Freedom’s Forge”. Well worth the time and effort to check out from the library and read.

The origin of the thread was a testament to the ability of American manufacturing to produce the finest product in he world, and that extends to the automotive industry as well. And we did make the best automobiles in the world from the early 1900s right up through the 1960s. Cadillac and Lincoln were world standards. Chrysler, well, they never quite rang the bell, but they did develop benchmark technology in the drag racing world.

What happened is complicated, lengthy, and involves unions, management acquiescence to unions, American automobile manufacturing arrogance while Japan, starting from scratch after WWII developed modern manufacturing technologies, and other legendary factors like politics and attempts at protective regulation.

Automobile factories built and run in the U.S. by other companies have shown that he workers are willing and able. But much of the American automotive manufacturing history these past few decades has convinced me that the management isn’t ready, and political interventions have been to bail management out rather than let them suffer the consequences of their ineptitude.

Sadly, I’m not optimistic. I don’t think I’ll see U.S. manufacturers back at the top of the game in my lifetime.