not on the 09 you can’t. it’s either the 4.6L or 5.4L v8
I believe some of it is marketing hype. After all, Ford has improved quality to the point where it is comparable to Japanese quality. I will also point out that Nissan doesn’t have the same reputation for reliability as Honda and Toyota, although many people assume they do because it is a Japanese company.
Secondly, I think many people who have been dissatisfied with the quality of their “Detroit” cars have a “Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me.” type of attitude. I can be pretty stubborn myself and after some of the Fords I have owned, I will never own another. Even if Fords become the best cars on the planet, I don’t think they deserve my money after providing me with such poor customer service experiences. More on that later (below). However, I was impressed with the Chevy van I drove in the 1980s. So I feel as though I am being objective here.
We live in a global economy now. There is no need to feel unpatriotic about buying the car you perceive as high-quality, even if it isn?t. After all, the Mini Cooper isn?t known for its reliability. My old Honda was made in Ohio. Many Fords, Chevys and Chryslers were made outside the US. So buying American can mean buying a Honda or a Toyota if it is made here in the good old USA. Who do you want to support, American workers and Japanese CEOs and managers or foreign workers and American CEOs and managers? I would prefer to support American workers and Japanese CEOs. As a group, Japanese CEOs make less money and outperform many American CEOs.
On the Ford thing I said I would address, I have owned two Fords. One was a 1985 Escort and the other was a 1980 Econoline van. The Escort was a troublesome piece of crap from day one. The van was actually a pretty good vehicle until I moved to Dallas and took it to the Ford dealer for service. After that, it was just as bad as the Escort. So I would say the Dallas Ford dealership has as much influence in my view of Ford as Ford Motor Company. As a result, I will never own a Ford again. My customer service experience with them and their proxies was horrendous.
So let me try to follow your logic here.
- You claim that an unspecified group believes that Asian cars are perfect and infallible.
- You demonstrate that Asian cars are not perfect or infallible.
- You conclude…what, exactly?
Diesel in a car? Nope, we’ve been down that road before
When we went down that road before, they were modified truck engines wedged under the hoods of cars. Today’s diesel car engines are not like that. They are quiet, run clean, and are much more reliable than they were back then.
I’m sure Joesph Meehan can attest to that with his Beetle TDI
My biggest issue with the Big 3 has been that, in certain niches, they offer very little. My first car was a Dodge neon, which I loved, autocrossed, and happily drove for 8 years. It was a great car, but when I replaced it and wanted to “move up” that’s where I felt ignored by the Big 3. I drive stick because I enjoy it. Always have, always will. But it’s getting harder to find stickshifts period, and forget about GM, Ford, and DC. Especially now that I want a wagon, and forgive me if I want a little power to go with it - where do I turn? Subaru was there for me with the WRX and now, the Legacy 2.5GT. If I had had more money, I could have bought an Audi, BMW, Saab, VW, or Volvo that met my needs. Looking ahead, Mazda even offers stick in the Mazda5 minivan. What are my options if I want to buy American (disregarding part ownership and where the car is actually built)? The Caliber? The Focus? The Aveo? These are punishments, not options.
I know you can’t be all things to all people, but I think the Big 3 had fallen in love with their SUVs and trucks and forgot to make sure they had something for everyone. I understand my niche is somewhat small (and that Honda, Nissan, and Toyota don’t offer exactly what I’m looking for either - at least not in the US) but I’d buy American if they’d make something that fit my needs.
To put things in perspective…how many of you are sailors and have followed the Americas Cup races these past 20 years ? If you have, you’d know how multinationalism has taken over every phase of our industries incl. autos.
Even citizenships are negotiable. Why wouldn’t car comps. be any different. Lets have American healthcare and retirement plans…after that, it’s every man/women for themselves.
A big niche for for the big three is the rental business. Why fill the lot with Corollas which are better buys long term, but can’t hold a candle to a Ford Taurus for ride comfort and utility for the week you use it. Rental companies want the most bang for the buck and with a short turn over, long term reliability is not the issue.
Agree, let’s not get sentimental about who owns the business. The British are quite happy that Tata, an upstart colonial company from India, bought Jaguar and Land Rover. At least it is not disappearing and most of the manufacturing will be retained in England. The British think Heinz is a British company since Heinz soups are a household item. Vacuumimg the floor in England is called hoovering, they also swear that Hoover is a British company.
I don’t know how many of you tank Shell gas, but it probably does not bother you that Shell is mostly Dutch and the rest British. Neither do you care that those tasty Nestle chocolat bars are made by a Swiss componay. And numerous other food products are made by Unilever, a Dutch-British conglomerate. Likewise a Canadian company owns John Hancock Insurance.
The world’s largest steel company is Mittal, an Indian company headquartered in Luxembourg. The world’s largest microwave oven manuafcturer is Samsung, who also make all the Sears Kenmore ovens.
The issue here is the sudden loss of many thousands of jobs from North America, if the Big 3 go under, that likely will be filled by a vast increase in imports and some increase in North American manufacturing.
With the Department of Justice permission, Toyota, Nissan and Honda could maybe be persuaded to take over the Big 3, and trim them down to size. If they accepted that challenge, there would still be closure of about half their remaining plants , a wholesale cleanout of management and administrative staff, and all contracts with the unions torn up. But US and Canadian jobs would be retained, and imports from offshore would not increase. Canadian plants produce 26% of all the Big 3 cars sold in the US, a fact many are not aware of. Ontario produces more cars than Michigan, and the industries have been tied together seamlessly since 1965. The first Chrysler minivans were built in Canada, as were the last Camaros and Firebirds, and Ford’s last Crown Victorias and Lincoln Town cars. The new Ford Edge crossover is also built in Canada.
If the car industry was not such an important component of the economy, it would be best to let nature take its course and let the fittest survive. So, I’m still in favor of loan guarantees with a restructuring plan from each company approved by the government before any loan is approved. Those made unemployed by the process should get government compensation and retrining allowances.
Good post “Docnick”.
I hope enough other readers read your post get off the GM/Ford/Chrys as American and worry specifically about jobs and benefits for American workers W/O regard to name plates.
To repeat myself…all auto companies will need to reorganize or fail as soon as the electric car becomes viable. Many small start ups can build one. Microsoft or Sony could make a great one as well.
“With the Department of Justice permission, Toyota, Nissan and Honda could maybe be persuaded to take over the Big 3,…”
Extremely unlikely, and it has nothing to do with DoJ. How many plants do Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have in the USA or Canada with union labor? Somewhere between zero and none. They will not take on an operation with a labor union, and certainly not one as strong as the UAW or CAW. This is not an indictment of the UAW/CAW, just a statement about how the J3 take care of business. European manufacturers, maybe. But not Asian ones.
Extremely unlikely, and it has nothing to do with DoJ. How many plants do Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have in the USA or Canada with union labor? Somewhere between zero and none. They will not take on an operation with a labor union, and certainly not one as strong as the UAW or CAW. This is not an indictment of the UAW/CAW, just a statement about how the J3 take care of business. European manufacturers, maybe. But not Asian ones.
All Toyota has to do is merge GM’s product line into their own and offer the GM employee jogs with Toyota. No more union. It’s happened in other industries.
I really want to give American cars a try. In the 90’s, our family had a Saturn SL2 that lost air bags, brake booster, and oxygen sensor without so much as a dent on the bumper. Coolant mysteriously disappeared. It was a great car to drive when it worked. We traded it in for my 04 xB when warranty was over.
In the last 5 years, I’ve driven a couple of American cars just to see how they compared to the old Saturn and I’m still not impressed. The Chevy HHR was bigger than the xB in every way. On the inside, the big console literally rubbed me the wrong way for the whole drive. It was the same with those 15 passengers Ford Ecolines that I drove for money in college. There was so little pedal space and were really awkward to drive.
Then I went on a ski trip with friends and we rented a Ford 500. It was comfortable with legible instruments. There were plenty of hard plastic for a car that expensive but at least that thing was well screwed together. That’s all the nice things I can say about it. The transmission was quick to upshift but won’t downshift without a big foot on the pedal. And when it did, it gave me more power than necessary. The “L” in PRNDL was just a suggestion and won’t lockout specific gears. Road feel and path accuracy were non-existent–I turn the wheel and had to look at where the car was going, instead of feeling it thru the wheel. Me and my friends had trouble keeping it between the lines on the road. For the record, I drive between the lines just fine in a BUS.
Last year, I went on 2 business trips and rented Chrysler products on 2 occasions. Both drove predictably, and had the expensive looks, but I would not buy neither. The PT Cruiser kept on pumping gas fumes into the vents. The Avenger was a rattling trap. I could hear the rods inside the door bouncing around. Neither were had 20k miles on the clock.
From my experience with the Big 3, Ford is the best in my book, and yet I can’t give them my money. Not until they stop selling couches on wheels. Like one of the previous poster, I like lightweight wagons with sports car handling, because I can be chasing Mercedes in the hills after hauling a couch. Also, my motto is no manual, no deal, even with SoCal traffic. I know Ford sell what I want in Europe, just not here. If a car company cannot satisfy my transportation needs, I just have to another company.
Mike & jt; I was being somewhat facetious in my statement; the Japanese and US business cutures are so different that Toyota, Nissan and Honda would be handicapped if they “inherited” the workforce of the Big 3.
The sugestion that the Chinese should buy one or all three is not so far-fetched; they could easily finance the purchase, and don’t need to make money immediately. However, whoever buys them would gut the organization, starting with the management team, and decertifying the unions. At this stage, the planys are actually in pretty good shape, and only need a little further tweaking to be world class.
I travel a lot for business, and as a result am forced to often rent the worst the US has to offer in terms of cars (Dodge Nitro, Charger, Avenger, PT Cruiser, Caliber, Taurus, Sebring, etc), basically, Rental Queens. Every now and again I get the chance to rent a gem of a car in comparison, a Toyota.
It makes me wonder how many times the big 3 can re-badge a car to suit their “needs”. In the Dodge Nitro for example, I couldn’t help but feel like I got stuck with a bastardized Jeep liberty. The dodge caliber shared all the same uselessness as the Jeep Compass, the Charger cut my finger on interior plastic, and its brother the 300 wears the same suit. The steering in all is numb and gives you the apperance of the connected steering of a proper car, but with none of the feedback. The gearbox’s don’t know what to do, and are jaring and can’t pick a gear. Some still have 4 speeds! The suspension can’t seem to find a happy medium between rough and non-existant. So, as a lesson, if you are going to clone a car with a different badge, at least the volkswagen/audi example and use something worth cloning, and actually make it better. I’m talking to you Dodge/Chrysler, Ford/Mercury.
And for those who tout the CTS/CTS-V as the second coming, when it hasn’t used a existing 5 Series/M5 design as a benchmark when they started, then we can talk.
In my daily life I drive a BMW, and while not without its faults, there aren’t 5 other brands using the same platform at additional cost, just to keep a dying brand alive. Sure it is german, but we havnen’t fought them over anything but trade in 60 years, and the germans at least gave chrysler a leg to stand on for a couple years before culling their losses and running. Does this make me un-patriotic, I hope not, my federal employers might not appreciate me so much then, as well as the Marines and Sailors that I serve.
Will bailing them out work, no. Look at British Leyland and their bailout failure, look at the AIG execs who went on and spent millions on “Bailout parties”, Look at the 3 execs who said they wouldn’t downgrade to first class for the flight to DC. The only thing that is going to solve anything is a restructuring, and that includes getting rid of redundant brands, overlapping products in a brand, dropping the accountants from the top office, reliving the pain of union costs ($2300 per vehicle) and putting what you’ve got left back into a quality product.
"Sure Toyota/Nissan or Honda has problems…but when it’s discovered…they fix it. Usually the same year."
Not necessarily. Toyota had the V6es that’d sludge up and seize, for YEARS, I don’t know if they’re still making them, but they were for almost a decade. They were claiming every time that the owner must not have been changing the oil at the proper interval (to try to avoid paying for an engine under warranty). Even when they had receipts, from the dealer, saying that they did.
I'm not saying Toyotas are junk, far from it, but they aren't infallible either.What’s ironic is people driving oversized SUVs and trucks by Big 3 and thinking they’re patriotic. The fuel that those cars are guzzling helps support oppressive countries who oppose everything American. Many “foreign” cars are actually made here in the US, while most of our gas expenditures are funneled to other countries. Heard an anaylst today say that this is the first time in history that America has been at war, and has been financially supporting both sides.
As far as the cars themselves, my highest concern is reliability. Acc to latest
Consumer Repts, Honda and Toyotas (with a few models excepted) rate very high on reliability. Our experience has been that the basic Accords and Camrys have been solid, reliable, and fuel efficient. My contrast, we bought our Chysler van new, and had to bring it back to dealer 4 times to get AC to work. It now has under 35K mi and just had to have bushings and links replaced. After a little internet research, I discover the problem is widespread, and dates back to models in the 1990’s!! Even though Chysler could have fixed the design deficiency for relatively little cost, it chose not to. After that van dies, we will choose to go back to Toyotas and Hondas. I want a reliable car.
China is more like it. And Mike, and extremely powerful union like the UAW or CAW will not lie down and get out of the way. They would find a way to work with whoever they buy would be, but I don’t think that the Toyota or Honda business model would allow them to buy GM, Ford, or Chrysler if the union continued to exist. Without first disbanding the union, there would be little incentive to buy the US auto companies.
The car might be reliable, but expect the transmission to have troubles in Honda or Toyota.
As I said on a different forum; A Toyota or Honda vehicle drives off the lot with 10 miles on the odometer, pulls up behind someone at a stoplight and explodes, killing 20 people, and the media will fault some kind of factory defect. A vehicle from the “Big 3” has a headlight bulb go out after 10 years and the everyone and the media is all over it claiming they build nothing but junk and does a week long investigation into their negligence as a company
I AGREE
YUK! and I’M the only one in my group.
GERMAN CARS (wow ! now theres some real YUK factor. way worse then the domestic YUKS.
buffy I need 10 million dollars for BRAKE PADS.
LMFAO!
MO!