I’m and EX American Car buyer. Use to be a HUGH Chevy fan. I would LOVE to buy an American made vehicle…I will agree that they have made some great improvements in the past 20 years (last time I bought one), but IMHO they still have a long way to go. The BIGGEST problem I see with the Big-3 is they take so long to FIX a problem. Sure Toyota/Nissan or Honda has problems…but when it’s discovered…they fix it. Usually the same year. GM or Ford or Chryco will analyze the problem…and if the problem is too costly they’ll forgo any changes until the cost of making repairs out strips their profits. I’ve seen many design and manufacturing flaws in the Big-3 that stretch over decades before the problem is finally addressed.
I think that’s a good point about being open minded. I think people buying exclusively imported cars is no different than the older folks who would buy a new Oldsmobile (or whatever their brand of choice) every 5 years just because they always have. I also think that during the golden age of the Big 3 when they were more vertically integrated (i.e most of the parts in their cars were actually made by the company or wholey owned subsidiaries) you perhaps could say something about the general quality of one brand versus another. But nowadays, there’s so much rebadging and so many car components are outsourced, that there’s not really anything all that meaningful you can say about the quality of a particular marque. You really have to look at individual models these days and though you can say that one brand tends to sell a lot of very good models, you can’t say just because a model is from that brand it’s going to be good itself. And the opposite is true as well-- just because one brand has a bad reputation doesn’t mean they might not make a few excellent cars.
Incidentally, speaking of rebadging, the brand my Grandma has always bought has been Saab. She’s bought a new 900/9.3/whatever they’re called now every 5 years or so since the mid-70’s. However, I think a bit of it has been her just wanting to be different and now that the new version of the car she’s always bought is mechanically identical to the mid-size GM sedans her friends drive, she might not be buying a Saab this time around. Brand loyalty can be funny some times!
Mike, I think you hit the nail on the head! Early Japanese cars were dismal, but improved very rapidly, as did Korean ones. The GM intake manifold gaskets, Chevette transmissions in full size cars, Interminable transmission problems for Chrysler, Ford rust problems, etc, means that it takes forever to get a component improved. Only the British are slower; it took from 1949 till 1963 for Jaguar to increase radiator cooling capacity to where the cars did not overheat in the largest market, California!
Oh, OK. I have a 4-yr degree, and a middle class job. Income-wise, I’m almost totally average.
Well. I’m certainly in MY place. Do you see EVERY foreign-car-buyer as unpatriotic as me? That’s a lot of bad people.
"J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Overall Initial Quality Improves Considerably, with Gains Shared Across
Most Manufacturers
American Honda, Ford Motor Company, General Motors Corporation and Toyota Motor Sales Each Capture Three Initial Quality Model Awards"
Full Report at: J.D. Power 2008 - Initial Quality Study - 4 June 2008
Initial Quality is just that; it refers to assembly quality and how well the dealer has prepared the car for the customer. It has nothing to do with design quality for trouble-free long life. Volkswagens, for instance, and Mercedes have very good assembly quality, but often turn into problem plagued vehicles later.
The assembly quality of US cars havs greatly improved, but longevity and long term reliability still leavea big gap with Japanese Cars.
The JD Power Long Term Ownrship survey is more important; it deals with satifaction after 3 years or so.
" Initial Quality is just that; it refers to assembly quality and how well the dealer has prepared the car for the customer. It has nothing to do with design quality for trouble-free long life…?
I disagree. It seems to me if car that rolls off the line with fit, finish, and other errors is not a good candidate for a long, trouble-free life. I would be concerned with other problems that are hidden. Initial quality is not a guarantee, but I would not buy a car that is substandard from the start.
I’m not keen on any marketing survey company such as J.D.Power for the simple fact they got caught 15 years ago taking payola to promote an Asian vehicle as No. 1 in Customer Satisfaction. A few sacrificial lambs were canned and onward they go.
However, if one wants to use a survey as Gospel truth then heap a bit of praise on the Big Three when they get favorable reviews; as has happened.
I also strongly disagree that problems that were prevalent years ago (rust, transmissions, carbs/emission problems, etc.) were proprietary to the Big Three.
(Consider a 4 year old Subaru in the shop (from Minnesota) that was rusted out so bad I asked a mechanic about 4 stalls away to watch as I sat a can of Coke on top of the 2 front tires - through the holes in the tops of the front fenders.)
If a Big Three car maker designs and installs a failure-prone plastic govenor gear in the transmission they get vilified; if it’s done in an Asian car (Subaru) no problem.
I also strongly disagree that the Asians “do the right thing and treat their employees right”. We had a Japanese rep in one time at the regional office who lived in the city (Japan of course) during the week. During this time his living quarters was a “sleeping cell”; basically a broom closet. Bunk, stereo, TV, just enough room to stand up and change clothes in, etc. How many of you would live and work like that? And he wasn’t even the lowest guy on the Totem pole.
I also disagree that the Asian car makers hop right to it when it comes to a chronic problem. If that were the case it would not have taken Subaru 6 years to get rid of plastic transmission gears and head gasket problems would still not be going on almost 30 years after they first issued a TSB on this problem.
They (Honda, Toyota, etc.)would also not be making idiotic maintenance recommendations such as 100k miles valve lash checks (and even worse, giving an embarassingly asinine method for checking the same) that cause car owners (through no fault of their own) to suffer engine problems.
I’m still dumbfounded that an engineer or anyone with any technical knowledge at all could recommend an audible method of valve lash inspection and keep a straight face while doing it.
What I really see as discouraging is a foreign car with a veteran/union/patriotic sticker on it. While I certainly think Asian (and other) cars are well engineered and built, I would not buy one–at least not new. I suppose that it doesn’t matter what brand you buy when you buy all your cars secondhand like I do though.
Reliability-wise, I’ve had far less trouble with my 94 Chrysler than my girlfriend has had with her 98 Honda. And I have many more miles on mine. Of course I’ve also owned an early 80s GM whose electrical system was possessed, and a 87 Ford that gave me nothing but grief. I also had a 92 Caprice that was a pretty good car.
Ok4450, Thanks For Your Insight And For Providing Links.
Your comments are very informative and the links are interesting and even entertaining. Perhaps if we treated our Big 3 Employees like they belonged to a country other than the greatest one on the planet, The United States of America, our cars would be more competitively priced. However, I will still buy only from the Big 3 and their employees may stay at reasonably priced motels (with a small pool and sauna), when traveling, with my best wishes. It would embarrass me as an American, to do otherwise.
I do consider cars from the Big 3 to be superior products when compared dollar to dolllar with cars from other makers. I too, have worked at car dealers, as a service writer, parts manager, and body shop manager, and have automobile mechanic certifications. I have owned and operated both Big 3 and alien cars, both new and used. Additionally, I have been a teacher for over 30 years, but that’s beside my point. My point is that I have qualifications to be judgmental, pertaining to cars.
I will continue to proudly support products from the Big 3 and I buy U.S goods and services, whenever possible.
Keep on contributing to this forum.
America, what a country!
I agree with what you say; the point I’m making is that good assembly quality does not guarantee long & reliable life.
disagree. It seems to me if car that rolls off the line with fit, finish, and other errors is not a good candidate for a long, trouble-free life. I would be concerned with other problems that are hidden. Initial quality is not a guarantee, but I would not buy a car that is substandard from the start.
I don’t think so…
Here’s a few examples…
Dodge PT Cruiser won high awards from JD Powers. Had a LOT of problems…especially the year it got this high rating.
Plymouth Acclaim - Another high honors from JD Powers. That car was a joke.
Isuzu Pup - Again what a joke.
Initial quality means NOTHING. It has no bearing on how well a vehicle will hold up over the long term. Maybe for the first 100k miles…but anything beyond that…forget about it.
Thanks Mike: here are a few more examples. The 1955 MG Magnette (the only sedan MG built) was a jewel of a car with leather upholstery, etc. Tom McCahill said it was finished like a Tiffany Diamond! It, and other well finished cars like the Rover 2000TC, turned out to be short-lived and troublesome junk. Jaguars have always had good assembly quality.
In any piece of equipment, there are 3 kinds of quality, as we related to otterhere on her now (in)famous blog; (1) original design quality for long and trouble-free life, (2) good quality materials selection for the operating environment and (3) assembly quality to make sure it all goes together well. In addition, good cars have high maintainability which is easy and inexpensive maintenance or elimination of maintenance items through good design. If you make things for the military, maintainability is one of the key items on the pentagon shopping list!
Examples of poor assembly quality and good reliability are the rear drive GM large sedans, US pickup trucks and other over-designed machines that will last well over 20 years. Twenty years ago the Japanese could not understand that Americans would accept such sloppy assembly quality, but they soon learned that reliability was most important followed by long component life.
In Japan you can’t sell a car with a poorly assembled dashboard, since the driver spends a very large part of his time looking at the dashboard in the trafic there. A perfect dashboard and mediocre suspension will sell cars over there.
I also strongly disagree that problems that were prevalent years ago (rust, transmissions, carbs/emission problems, etc.) were proprietary to the Big Three.
Back in the early 80’s rust was one of the BIGGEST problems with Toyota, Honda and Nissan. And I’ll admit that the Big-3 were far better at it then the Asian vehicles were. But they learned quickly and almost every vehicle out there is very good at controlling rust.
I’ve never been a great fan of Subaru myself. I know several people who’ve owned them and had chronic problems with them. And these problems seem to be in all Sub’s for several years.
But I’ve never seen that in Toyota, Nissan or Honda. Not saying they don’t have problems (they do)…but when problems arise it gets fixed.
I know it’s a sore subject with you…I guess because there is no possible defense…But GM had intake-manifold problems for well over 10 years. And ball-joint problems in their trucks for at least that long. They knew about it and REFUSED to address the problem until it became a liability. Longest problem I’ve ever seen in a Toyota or Honda model is 2-3 years MAX. And MOST of that time was because the problem never showed up until the car was 2-3 years old. Once they saw the failures the problem was corrected quickly.
If a Big Three car maker designs and installs a failure-prone plastic govenor gear in the transmission they get vilified; if it’s done in an Asian car (Subaru) no problem.
I COMPLETELY disagree with that. Most people who drive cars have no idea how it’s made or what kind of parts are used. All they know is does it run reliably. I have a brother-in-law who after 30+ years of buying nothing but Fords ended up buying his First Toyota. After his first year of ownership his one comment to me was he didn’t know the dealerships Service Mananger by his first name like he did the Ford dealer. Yet for those 30 years he swore up and down that Ford made quality vehicles. Talk about a free pass.
What I really see as discouraging is a foreign car with a veteran/union/patriotic sticker on it.
I am a veteran and I see no problem what-so-ever in buying an American Made Asian vehicle. Does buying American make you more patriotic…I DON’T THINK SO.
If buying American makes you patriotic…then GM, Ford and Chryco are very UNPATRIOTIC. Most of their electronics are foreign made…A good portion of the steel they use is NOT made in the US…Many of the engineering jobs used to design the vehicles are being shipped to India and China…Almost 100% of all Robotics used by the Big-3 are Foreign made.
ok4450, to be fair, quite a few people live like that over in Japan’s cities. Several people also take advantage of some gaming/comic book businesses because it’s actually cheaper to stay the night there as opposed to renting an apartment
A one room mansion (?) is a Japanese apartment style in which there is only one small room (10 m2/3.0 tsubo/110 sq ft in many cases) and usually a compact bathroom. These styles of units are most often rented by single individuals due to their extremely small size which make it hard for more than one person to reside in them. Most of Japan’s city apartments have rooms such as these although family units (around 60 to 90 m2/18 to 27 tsubo/650 to 970 sq ft in size) are more common, especially in Japan’s suburbs.
Well said “MikeInNH”. Also remember that the stock holders of GM encompass all other the developed nations of the world. If we bail out GM, we are sending as much if not more of our monies to subcontractors and jobs throughout the world. It does not stay hear. When GM finally says they have a competitive hybrid ready to sell…it may be assembled in Mexico with parts from who knows where. So illegals will have less need to migrate here and compete with the American worker in other fields. That’s how the bail out works.
ALL car companies are doomed to reorganization when the no maintenance electrics hit the market.
The difference between “foreign” and domestic manufacturing lies only in the union contracts that one has to deal with while the other doesn’t.
I completely disagree. In the 25+ years I have been driving I have had family and friends with “American Made Cars from American companies” First of fthe concept of an American car is a complet truck load of BULL.
I have had 2 Nissans, 2 Toyotas and 1 mitsubishi in my life time. MOst of them were built in the U.S. by American workers. With every one going to almost 200,000 miles before selling them or being totaled in a wreck. The most work I ever did on a single one was a brake job for about $900 that I think was really a con and replacement o f 2 alternators in 20 years.
I never once had a major issue with the mechanical or the interior of a single vehicle. Contrast to friends and relative with Ford or GM or Chevy cars or trucks that are plagued with issues from interiors that just come apary to preplacing transmissions, new engines and mechanical problems to numerous to list. Most with a major repair in under 30,000 miles.
The ask how many coponents of American Made cars are orginated from China, Japan or Korea?
Buying American Cars is not patriotic - since when was any of the big 3 been patriotic? Thety do nothing but create gigantic, unrealiable low mileage vehicles that are plagued with problems. They refuse to daapt to the market over the last 40 years and then come crying to the tax payer because they can’t compete like a real business and adapt to the market.
Boo Hoo - I say screw’em. They have been diggin this hole since the 1970’s. IF they havd spent the amount of money the did lobbying congress to fight progress on new technologies and efficiencies then they would probably be the world leaders in hybrid technology and low mileage reliable vehicles. Instead they have a room of 12 guys giving themselves 10’s of million dollar bonuses and patting themsilves on the backs for coming in last place.