The shop where I took it is neither a dealer nor the place that did the original flush. It just so happens that I had a trusted local mechanic for several years but his business moved and I didn?t find him until this came up when I was explaining my dilemma to a friend who uses him (go figure). I would have pursued the dealer path but once they asked what color the antifreeze was and I said green, they put up a wall. So, before having it towed I got four estimates, two from Toyota dealers, based on the worse case scenario that it needed the heater core replaced. I decided to go with my former trusted mechanic since I trust him and he was several hundred dollars cheaper than the dealers. Once the car made it there he confirmed it was a leaking heater core. He suggested going with OEM heater core and replacing with Toyota red coolant. This moved the repair cost up but I agreed because I want to get it back to normal. I?ve asked him to save the old core for inspection when I pick it up.
The other estimate was from the shop that did the flush. I explained what happened but didn?t try to assume they were the cause since I?m not really sure yet. Their estimate was about the same as my trusted mechanic. I inquired why they used green instead of red and they had a reasonable explanation saying that if I needed to top off on the road green was easier to get. Once I have a chance to inspect the core, if it looks like the seams are separated, I might be led to believe they over pressurized the system.
Still, the best I think I can do is write a letter to them explaining what happened. If I try in person they might get defensive and not hear me. If they were the cause, I?m sure they didn?t do it on purpose. I also don?t expect they will compensate me; it would be great though if they did. I wasn?t expecting to put out a grand, especially right after Christmas, but it might help them in preventing it in the future and alert others to the possible problems. I agree with Keith that even good mechanics can make mistakes. Life happens. I also don?t think I have a chance with Toyota helping me given the path I took.
As for the carpet pad, I had considered that and know what you?re saying, TwinTurbo. The shop has a detailer they are using to clean it up. I?ll just have to wait to see how it comes out, but if they don?t dry the under-padding, I?m sure the smell will remain.
Keep in mind it’s not just the smell of antifreeze you should be concerned about. If it is soaked, it’ll start to grow mold and mildew and then you’ll have an even bigger problem to deal with down the road.
If the carpet is rubberized backing and they use a normal carpet cleaner, the carpet itself will be dry but the padding will remain soaked. They rubberize the carpet so water from your shoes can’t get below to the padding but then the opposite is also true.
That is a valid concern, when I replace the coolant in my cars, I use a hose to separately “flush” through the heater core in the reverse direction. I am careful to use just enough water pressure to get a good flow and remove any debris. Then I gravity feed several gallons of distilled water through the heater core and engine block to displace any remaining tap water. When I refill, I first put in an appropriate amount of straight antifreeze to end up with a 50/50 mixture (based on my system volume), then top off and bleed out the air with more distilled water.
I like this last note. In fact I would go one further by suggesting that problem dealers and garages be named (right down to the name and street address) in these message exchanges about their shoddy work and service. By sending them a copy of these exchanges, they may better realize just how much their mis-service can become broadly disseminated and could come back to haunt them in the form of lost business.
Of course, the same practice should benefit those dealers and garages that do good work and deserve plaudits.
Having said this however, I fully expect the liberal ACLU attorneys to cry libel over such a practice. But it felt good to say it.
I understand what you?re saying now, TwinTurbo. This could turn out to be the biggest problem of all. They can replace the core and add coolant back in, but soaked carpet is another story. And, yes, it was soaked with green coolant all the way to the back floor on driver?s side.
That?s a good idea to print these pages and attach them to my letter, hellokit, and I appreciate your comments Francizek. After writing the letter I really do want to give them a chance to respond, and if I feel they were the cause but don?t respond I might at that point write a review on this website and possibly other sites. CarTalk has a link where you can find a good mechanic by entering your zip-code. I?ve noticed this shop is listed there and has a few favorable reviews saying they?re honest, etc. So, I?d like to give them a chance first then go from there.
There is one angle to this that I have not mentioned previously. It’s only brought up here due the insinuation that the dealer and/or independent shop could have done something wrong and should be publicly lashed.
The car was purchased used with 46k miles so consider this theory. What if the car had experienced a bad overheating episode in the past with the original owner and had gotten hot enough to blow a head gasket or fracture the heater core?
Maybe the head gasket did not blow but the core was weakened and someone added some stop-leak. Having the system flushed could have loosened any stop-leak product and caused the leak.
It’s also possible a core could have been weakened by the previously mentioned overheating episode, no stop-leak was used, and the core finally decided to throw in the towel after being flushed.
If this is the case there is no way the current owner or even the dealer who sold the car would have known the problem existed and it’s no one’s fault here; just an unfortunate happening. Some food for thought anyway.
(Still wondering if the hose clamps are loose and the core is fine.)
That?s a good argument, ok4450 that I had not considered. The assurances I had during the purchase were; I knew it was a one-owner vehicle which I could tell from the Carfax title report, the owner was relatively local to me but of course no name is given, the owner purchased the car from the same Toyota dealer I purchased from, and the car was sold as a Certified Toyota vehicle. Upon checking, that certification comes with a 160 point inspection. As part of that inspection the engine cooling and HVAC systems are checked, but I can?t say how involved that goes. The other assurance was the maintenance manual, which had hand-written notes and I believe dealer stamped for milestone services. I don?t currently have it in front of me though.
I’m not real convinced the car had a severe overheating episode that caused this; only pointing a possibility.
There can also be a reason why the radiator cap may not let off excessive pressure that exceeds the cap’s rating. That is because sometimes if a radiator cap is allowed to remain in place for several years without ever being loosened the rubber seal may stick to the radiator itself. This will allow the cooling system to exceed the normal operating pressure. I’ve seen a few stuck so badly the rubber seal was destroyed when the cap was finally loosened.
There’s also another possibility. Could it be that the shop doing the flush removed one of the heater hoses and removed it in a rough manner? If someone was ham-fisted when removing the hose it’s possible they could have fractured a soldered joint where the hose nipple attaches to the core itself.
Since you have a problem bad enough to saturate the carpet all the way to the back seat it’s obviously not a normal pinhole and a fracture would be more likely.
I would examine (post some pics here if possible) the old heater core very carefully. If there is a fracture at the nipple attachment point then I would be inclined to think this was caused by someone getting to rough with it; as in the shop doing the flush.
Actually, the carpet should be removed, washed thoroughly, and allowed to dry. The matting underneath the carpet should be thrown away IMHO. If the shop doing the flush is the cause of this then they owe you for the entire thing IMHO.
I just picked it up and it appears one of the two aluminum lines that are permanently attached to the heater core body was weakened at the joint. The mechanic suggested it might have been done if the rubber hoses attached at the firewall were removed with too much force during the flush. He commented again that he has not seen this at such low mileage.
His detailer was not available but he got a lot of the green coolant off the carpet with a wet/dry vac and said it has a rubberized backing and not an under pad like a home carpet. I just made an appointment elsewhere to have it detailed and shampooed.
To wrap this up, I think it will be difficult to say for sure if the shop that did the flush was the cause. I still plan to write a letter and bring it to their attention. I?ll also let them know it cost $960 for a new core installation and $90 for detailing. I plan to comment about installing green instead of Toyota red antifreeze without giving me an option, which made it difficult to ask Toyota for help in the case that it was genuinely a part failure.
Thanks again to everyone for your replies. Maybe my experience might help someone in the future.
I would like to know how the cooling system was flushed. Was a coolant flush machine used? If so, the heater hoses don’t need to be touched using one of these machines. As the connection is made at the upper radiator hose and radiator neck.
If it was performed using a flushing tee installed in the heater hose, then someone may have damaged the heater core tube when the tee was installed. But this would require some real force in order to crack this joint.
But this failure may have also been caused from stresses imposed on the heater core tube from engine movement. The heater hoses are supposed isolate the heater core from this. But if the hoses become stiff, or were installed incorrectly at the factory, the engine movement over time can begin to pull on the heater hoses which puts stresses on the heater core tube which eventually causes fitigue cracking. And the heater hoses on this vehicle are pretty short.
Rather than send a letter I would either call them or drop by and ask how they go about flushing the system. If they say that they remove the heater hose at the core nipple, and considering the fracture is at the nipple/core junction, that would point to someone getting a bit rough with it IMHO.
If the core is aluminum then extra care should be used because aluminum is a brittle metal and will not take stress like steel or brass would.
Keep in mind it’s not just the smell of antifreeze you should be concerned about. If it is soaked, it’ll start to grow mold and mildew and then you’ll have an even bigger problem to deal with down the road.
No, it won’t mold. Ethylene Glycol is used as a wood preservative because it stops rot and mold. It also does not give off enough fumes to cause a health hazard. It takes about an ounce, directly ingested short term, to cause a health problem. There is more antifreeze in a shot of most cold medicines than you would get from breathing the fumes in this situation.
I would vacuum out any liquid, soak up as much as possible with polypropylene or microfiber towels and not worry about the rest.
I phoned the shop that did the flush and they said they do not use a flush machine; they remove the hoses at the firewall. I then spoke to the owner and explained the who problem. He wants me to come by with the old core for inspection. He asked if I tried calling Toyota. I commented that the dealer said it was my problem since they didn?t do the flush. The owner said he knows someone at the regional Toyota offices I can call instead of wasting time with the dealer.
I?m not sure how I can get him to take responsibility. All things seem to lead to their workmanship, but I can?t rule out the fact that someone might have compromised the core in the past or perhaps it is an inadequately assembled part and they happened to be the unlucky shop to push it over the edge.