When a little hatchback comes from the factory with nearly 300hp out of a 4cyl, you know things are gettin crazy
Yeah. I dont needs 500hp to go get groceries and when something goes wrong i know what it is and i can fix it. Mechanics here are $100hr
The over hyped horsepower figures are nearly meaningless. A true 300 hp will pull a 75,000 pound semi at 75 mph for hours on end. The 500 hp coupes may theoretically be capable of traveling 170 mph but only the Gear Heads would be foolish enough to try it and at best the engine could withstand just a few minutes of such abuse before sprinkling itself on the pavement. If automobile financing was restricted to 2 year notes and required 20% down how many “super coupes” would be on the road?
O2 sensors are only used on cars with fuel injection, right?
So, if O2 sensors came into being around 1981, is that about when FI was also being adopted?
Fuel injection began in the late '30s, and was used on many WWII aircraft (first by the Germans). In cars, Mercedes had mechanical fuel injection for years, and VW introduced electronic FI in the Type 3 (‘Squareback’ and ‘Fastback’) in 1968, others followed, with Detroit gradually adopting FI in the late '70s - '80s.
“A true 300 hp will pull a 75,000 semi at 75 mph for hours on end.”
Rod Knox, your statement is true, for a HEAVY-DUTY TRUCK DIESEL, which is a world of difference apart from a gasoline-fired automotive engine; seems to me that you are thinking more in terms of TORQUE than horsepower. High horsepower in an automobile gasoline engine is more for SPEED than brute power, whereas a truck diesel’s power is more about High Torque at lower rpm’s, for the purpose of performing heavy work tasks. A 300-hp gasoline V8 engine, in the neighborhood of 5 liters displacement, installed in a car or a pickup truck, will have a maximum torque output of around 310 lb./ft, because it was designed more for Light Work and/or Rapid Acceleration; it will reach that Peak Torque at around 3,400 rpm, and its Horsepower Peak at around 4.800 rpm; the engine will have an rpm redline somewhere between 5,500 and 6,000 rpm. A 300-hp diesel truck engine, on the other hand, will be MUCH Larger and Heavier, will usually be an inline 6-cylinder, and will have a displacement of around 14 liters, and a torque peak of about 1,400 lb./ft., or more than 4-1/2 TIMES the gasoline auto engine’s torque; the big diesel will reach Peak Torque at about 1,500 rpm, and its Max Horsepower at around 1,800 rpm, while Holding its Max Torque from 1,500; this engine will redline at around 2,100 rpm. I have a good number of years; experience driving semi trucks, so I know what they’re capable of. Most truck diesels these days (and for the last 15-20 years) have been capable of well over 400 hp, and over 1,600 lb./ft. torque. The most powerful semi I ever drove was an "02 Freightliner Classic conventional, wit a 515-hp Detroit Diesel under the long hood; that engine was also rated for 1,850 lb./ft. torque. All that being said, I realize I’m off topic, but I just wanted to clear some things up.
Now, getting on topic, if I were buying an older pickup truck, pre-1974, I’d try to find out if it ever had hardened valves and valve seats installed; If no, or no clear, documented answer, I’d add some top cylinder lubrication to the gas at every tankful or every other tankful, whichever was recommended by the brand used. Marvel Mystery Oil has been around as long as I can remember.
In 1981, oxygen sensors were used to control the fuel mixture delivered by “feed-back” carburetors…A misguided technology used to meet emissions standards while the major automakers either negotiated with Bosch for F.I. patent rights or tried to develop their own F.I. systems without infringing on Bosch patents…G.M.'s TBI managed to do that…Ford settled with Bosch and went straight to multi-port injection in 86-87…Honda fought with Bosch in an epic court battle, forcing Honda to use carburetors (nightmare carburetors) long after most makes were injected…
The 500 hp coupes may theoretically be capable of traveling 170 mph but only the Gear Heads would be foolish enough to try it and at best the engine could withstand just a few minutes of such abuse before sprinkling itself on the pavement
Tell that to the Bugatti engineers.
Very impressive. But if I had $2million to spend on a toy there’s a villa near Cruz Bay that would be much more comfortable.
Just started a rebuild on a 1975 dodge w100. And I hate to tell you one of the FIRST things that is going is the carburetor. Yes I can rebuild them and tune them, but why bother, I can replace with FI, and let the computer get the mix perfect. Given the track record of FI over the last 40+ years they are as reliable or more reliable then carburetors. Also carburetors tend to run a little rich so you’re looking at more frequent oil changes.
Like others have said, unless you want a project, spend the money to get a really nice truck to start with. I know I’m going to spend in the range of $5,000 to $8,000 plus all my time to get this truck fixed up. But it’s a father son project so it’ll be money well spent.
I can’t imagine trashing a perfectly serviceable carburetor and installing an electronic FI system. The cost to benefit is awfully steep.
C’mon, Rod Knox, you’re applying cost/benefit to a hobby car? No one would ever buy one in that case! While I could keep a carb working, I would also consider trying out a FI setup, just for the fun of it, along with the drivability and stable tune.
I can’t imagine trashing a perfectly serviceable carburetor and installing an electronic FI system. The cost to benefit is awfully steep.
I did just that to a 1967 Camaro (350). As Texas said…it was a fun project. The FI was made by Holly. It was designed for 60s - 70’s small block GM V8’s. It was my brother-in-laws play car. He was hesitant about doing the project on his own…so we both did it. It was a lot of fun. We did this almost 30 years ago. Obviously there was no way he would ever get his investment back on the FI. I think it cost $2000 at the time. He still owns the car and is ALWAYS doing something with it. It’s beautiful condition considering it’s his daily driver during the summer months. A lot of the car has been modernized. 4-wheel disk brakes…Electronic Ignition, Fuel Injection…Interior was done new a couple of years ago. The interior is show-room condition. I told him I have first dibs on it when he dies.
I was presumptuous to consider you were speaking of keeping a beater on the road, Mike. The sky is the limit when building a “fun project.” The only reason to keep the receipts is for the warranty. I have had a few boats…
I agree about NOT putting money into keeping a beater on the road…But a fun car that you enjoy and love is totally different. With 2 kids in college and one entering a few years…I don’t have the money for a fun car…Maybe when they’re all out of college and living on their own I will…and hopefully NOT dead or too old to work on one.
Rod Knox
At best you’re talking 35+ year old technology with a carburetor, odds are you’re going to again a little in fuel economy with FI. The truck I’m currently working on never got better than 9 mpg 440 dodge w100 full time four wheel drive. I know the original owner and when towing it got much worse. Bump that up by just a 3 mpg and in about 17,000 miles (@ $4 a gallon) the system will pay for itself. Now if the old carburetor can be rebuilt, and all the metering jets, check valve seats, etc are in good order I could rebuild it for less than $75 or replace it with a new one for about $350, then spend some time getting it in perfect turn, and even then it would run a little rich, or I can spend just under $2,000 and have something that will tune itself and get a little better fuel economy. At today’s prices it doesn’t take that much of a gain to pay for a FI system.
I think I can offer some perspective on this. I have a 70’s Ford 4x4 truck and a 90’s Toyota Corolla. While it is somewhat easier to fix the truck, it requires considerably more frequent service than the Toyota. The Toyota is definetly more reliable. I’m just a Saturday mechanic with a basic tool-set and without any particular inherent mechanical skills, and I find I have no problem doing the routine maintenance and fixing the Toyota myself in my garage. In fact the Toyota has never been to a repair shop in it’s entire life. Which is something I can’t say for the 70’s truck.
I think the sweet spot for home mechanics is the early 90’s. The cars of the early 90’s are fuel injected, but the emissions & computer systems are still pretty simple. For example, on my early 90’s Toyota I can read the “check engine” codes with a simple jumper on the test connector. The codes flash out (sort of like Morse Code) on the dashboard display. (I should say here that I’ve never actually had to read a “check engine” code as the “check engine” light has never come on. But I did follow the shop manual instructions one day I was bored and had nothing better to do, and it’s easy to do.) Later in the 90’s the computer codes become considerably more complicated, and this makes it more difficult to do simple diagnoses for the home mechanic on these newer cars.
Still, there’s something to be said for the 70’s models to. You don’t really even need a manual to fix them. When you look down at the fuel pump and gasoline is pouring out, it’s sort of obvious what you have to do.
It’s a compromise between the 70’s and 90’s. The biggest difference between 70’s and 90’s is the electrical system. There’s over 1/2 mile of wire in the 90’s cars; there’s more electro-mechanical sensors and voltage activated devices, and the electrical schematics run dozens of pages. The entire electrical schematic of a 70’s car will usually fit on one or two pages. So while I think the 90’s are the sweet spot, to fix cars of early 90’s vintage in your garage, you will do yourself a big favor by purchasing a manufactuer’s shop manual for the car which will include the entire set of schematics and the trouble codes (should you ever need to read them).
My suggestion is to purchase a Toyota truck of early 90’s vintage, and purchase the appropriate Toyota shop manual for it.
You the man.
Ive mentioned the 90’s model toyota pickups many times. They are very good rigs
I might mention i heard a rumor that they are giving a good price on theses trucks for trade in and then crushing them (for obvious reasons) if its true i have no idea … but thats what i heard
rwee2000… My 1991 W-250 / 360 V8 uses a simple Carter TBI that works very well and would be a nice upgrade for your project…