I wouldn’t go to 10k, my new Toyota manual recommends 5k oil and filter with dino. I just bumped it up to 5k after doing 3k oil changes in everything I own for my entire life. When I drained the oil at 5k it was black. Good luck! Rocketman
MikeInNH
Dirty oil is only ONE indicator that the oil needs changing. Oil may be worn out before it gets too dirty.
Oh I know the additives supposedly break down somehow, but there apparently are dual-bypass filtration equipped vehicles running around with 100K and even well beyond on the same oil.
I find it very difficult to believe that clean-looking oil is doing the engine any harm.
I wouldn't go to 10k, my new Toyota manual recommends 5k oil and filter with dino.
This Toyota engine requires 0w-30…which you can NOT get in regular dino.
but there apparently are dual-bypass filtration equipped vehicles running around with 100K and even well beyond on the same oil.
Show me… There are some vehicles that have claimed to be 100k mile oil change…but that they do is change the filter every 3k miles…and add oil after the oil change…thus it’s really NOTa 100k mile oil change since clean oil is being introduced every 3k miles.
Oil breaks down through thermal or just shear stress…long before 100k miles.
I do my own oil changes at 5K intervals
I buy the mobil 1 5w30 when it’s on sale at Costco
Then I head over to the Toyota dealer, because their oil filter prices are very competitive. On the way out, I grab that free coffee and donuts which was already mentioned
Not to mention when you buy parts, they put them in reusable shopping bags. I’m pretty sure they’re not cloth, but they’re not plastic, either. Probably something recycled
I use those bags when I go to the super market
MikeInNH
Show me…[dual-bypass filtration equipped vehicles running around with 100K and even well beyond on the same oil].
I can’t really show you anything more than claims made online, and I imagine you’re already familiar with those.
There are some vehicles that have claimed to be 100k mile oil change…but that they do is change the filter every 3k miles…and add oil after the oil change…thus it’s really NOTa 100k mile oil change since clean oil is being introduced every 3k miles.
I doubt that all are receiving new filters every 3K, and I assume you meant to say they add oil after the FILTER change, but I agree that they do get some new oil from time to time.
Oil breaks down through thermal or just shear stress…long before 100k miles.
I might add oxidation to those processes, but I still think clean-ish looking oil is almost always doing the job; that by the time thermal, shear, or oxidation problems are in play, the oil will very likely look much the worse for wear.
can’t show more than claims online – Well that settles it, if it’s online it must be true!
VOLVO V70
can’t show more than claims online
Well, would an oil analysis lab have any credibility with you?
-----How long can an oil fill be run using by-pass filtration? We’ve heard claims of large (Class 8) diesels going 1,000,000 miles on the same fill of oil with no harm done to the engines. We have analyzed oils which have been in service 240,000 miles and found nothing unusual in the analysis, other than higher than average iron and lead (from steel parts and bearings), and these wear accumulations were not intolerably high.--------
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-pass-oil-filtration.php
Well that settles it, if it’s online it must be true!
Your words, not mine. I said there are apparently such cases out there.
There is a person on bobistheoilguy who claims short oil change intervals INCREASES wear.
He sites an SAE article. Here’s a couple of his quotes:
"If you buy/read SAE 2007-01-4133, you can see that using a decent filter (nothing super premium, just a normal filter) over an OCI stretching out to 15k miles has the wear rates going down. But the majority of wear is right after the OCI. Then the rates trend down as the tribochemical barriers are re-established. It is that chemical-physical film barrier that has the greatest affect on wear. Until it is upset, it just continues to get “better” for a long time. "
"Additionally, Ford/Conoco proved this as well. Wear rates DROP as the OCI lengthens. Check out SAE 2007-01-4133; buy it and read it! Ford tested wear at 0 miles, 3k miles, 5k miles, 7.5k miles, 10k miles and even 15k miles; the wear rates were highest upon the OCI and least after 15k miles!
Generally, there is a parabolic curve that is associated with wear rates. The are slightly higher initially, drop down to nearly nothing, and then escalate again after the oil is compromised past its point to deal with contamination.
The “uptick” in wear is due to the tribochemical barrier being removed by the “fresh” detergent package upon installation. Yes - believe it or not, too much of a good thing is a bad thing. Now, DO NOT read too much into this; I’m not saying it will kill any engine. But what I am explaining, and what is abundantly clear in UOA data as well as supported directly with the SAE article, is that the wear is HIGHER upon the initial OCI, because the cleaning additives actually remove the boundary layer that protects the metal parts. Don’t believe me? Read the whole article. And review my “normalcy” article as well; there is CLEAR data that shows the wear rates drop the further out you get from an OCI event."
I haven’t seen the SAE article, but it seems to be based on used oil analysis, showing metal particle content.
I posted there once suggesting that since UOA is an indirect way of measuring wear perhaps something else is going on.
I think it’s possible the rapid increase of metal particles in fresh oil comes from being “washed off” of various surfaces in the engine, not from increased wear.
Of course my idea didn’t get a warm reception.
I think the only way to conclusively show the short OCI’s increase wear would be to run two or more engines under identical conditions but different OCI’s, tear them down and measure the wear.
All that said, I’m on a 5000 mile/ 1 year schedule.
Two would not be statistically significant.
But I agree with your premise. Only with a controlled experiment wherein the engines themselves are directly examined and measured, with the wear surfaces analyzed microscopically, and only if the engines are first carefully examined and measured as they’re built under controlled conditions before ever being run, could any valid scientific conclusion be drawn. No question that it would be a huge project.
I should also add that any differences found in such a test might not transfer to the real world.
There’s another problem with determining wear using an indirect method such as particulates in the oil. It is possible that the engine that gets changed less often creates more wear earlier, such that the faster wearing cylinder walls and bearing surfaces remove more material in the oil earlier on and leaving looser interfaces and less material to be removed and suspended in the oil in later oil changes.
Indirect measurement of wear require interpolation and assumptions and can be tricky and inaccurate.
Read the disclaimer from Toyota and they will recommend 5k miles oil change intervals based on “special operating conditions”’; a.k.a. severe service.
Special conditions is defined as dusty or humid conditions, towing, car top carriers, heavy loads in the car, short trips, or idling in city traffic.
I don’t even personally know any drivers to whom that does not apply.
Those conditions do not apply to me, OK. Mostly long distance driving as a percentage of car use, even here in low mileage rural Mexico.
I am a believer in lab testing. Not every time, but to learn what you car actually does to its oil
I have been on here for a long time, and most discussions on oil changes result in people pushing their personal guess as the correct answer. So, finally I drove my 2002 Sienna to (I am forgetting but it was over 7,000 miles.) I had the oil checked and all parameters, contamination, viscosity, acid protection, was obviously going to be good to well over 10,000 miles. That was Mobil-1 EP.
Anything other than an occasional lab test is pure guess. With the common theme, what you should do for your $30,000 car, a lab test is nothing.
and, you also learn what is going on inside your motor, not just with the oil, bearing wear, blow-by, it’s far better than paying a top mechanic to analyze your motor’s condition.
I might add oxidation to those processes, but I still think clean-ish looking oil is almost always doing the job; that by the time thermal, shear, or oxidation problems are in play, the oil will very likely look much the worse for wear.
That is your opinion…but it’s not a fact.
The part I posted about special operating conditions, 5k miles oil changes, etc is from Toyota.
While I fully agree with it those words are theirs, not mine.
On my 2014 Avalon, it’s 0w20, and the severe service oil change interval is also 10k.
They say.
ok4450
Special conditions is defined as dusty or humid conditions, towing, car top carriers, heavy loads in the car, short trips, or idling in city traffic.
I wonder why humidity matters? Or idling for that matter?
MikeInNH
That is your opinion…but it’s not a fact.
Um, that’s why I prefaced it with I think instead of I declare!
But your link doesn’t actually conflict with my conjecture anyway. It basically says that dark oil isn’t necessarily ineffective oil. All I was saying is that worn-out oil is probably going to look bad, and clean-ish oil is most likely effective oil.
I agree that dark oil isn’t necessarily shot.
I don’t see a mention of humidity in the maintenance guide;
Additional Maintenance Items for Special Operating Conditions 2
Driving on dirt roads or dusty roads:
Inspect engine air filter
Replace engine oil and oil filter 1
Tighten nuts and bolts on chassis and body
Driving while towing, using a car-top carrier, or heavy vehicle loading4 :
Replace engine oil and filter 1
Tighten nuts and bolts on chassis and body
Repeated trips of less than five miles in temperatures below 32°F / 0°C:
Replace engine oil and oil filter 1
Extensive idling and/or low speed driving for a long distance such as police, taxi or
door-to-door delivery use:
Replace engine oil and oil filter 1
2 Perform these service items only if you drive primarily under the conditions indicated.
Special operating conditions applies to very few of my customers. For the 10,000 mile oil change vehicles that I see 90% change there oil at 10,000 miles or higher.
Here in southern California, I’d say a majority of drivers fall into the severe usage category
Unfortunately, many of them aren’t aware they’re actually in that category
Bought a 2001 Chevy Silverado new , changed oil at 2500 miles to 5W-30 Mobil 1 synthetic, and at 10,000, and at 10,000 intervals after that. Wanted to see what would happen, as this is the first time I tried this. Truck now has over 240,000 mile and uses a quart of oil every 10,000 (which it did from when it was new). I think that the trick is to use a full synthetic with a high quality filter (Mobil 1 also), to extend the drain interval. Also used a full synthetic transmission oil changed at 50,000 mile intervals. Planning to get rid of the truck in about a year only because of the extensive rust from upstate NY roads.