I saw Dealership and Ethics in the same post and had to check it out. Sounds like you’re handy with a wrench, why not pay them for their time and diagnosis and fix it yourself? They won’t be losing anything except a potential job, and you never know . . they might drop their price if you start to walk away. Good luck! Rocketman
BTW, I don’t think that the O2 sensor is the problem. Rocketman
Like all ethical questions, this one has further questions and a range of responses. If you paid for the tow and the diagnostic work you can feel more comfortable about having the car towed somewhere else so you can replace the aftermarket part (I’d also let the rep know why you are doing this, and let them know that you would feel more comfortable working with them if you felt they were treating you fairly).
This thread is getting pretty long, so, to be clear, I paid the tow-truck driver and the dealer before towing my car home. As it turned out I was easily able to reach an understanding with the service rep.
Rep: You need a new ECU.
Me: Sounds expensive.
Rep: $1100, just for the part
Me: Ouch.
Rep: Be a lot cheaper to pull one from a salvage yard.
Me: Yep.
And that was that. But before i just throw parts and labor (and more $$$) at this thing, I’d like to know what’s really going wrong. .
Satisficer, when you say you had a similar issue and fix, do you mean a new ECU was the fix, or a new O2 sensor?
Red Knox, I’ll give that EGR trick a go. I’ve tried looking for a vacuum leak with my propane torch, but sometimes they can be tricky to find…
02 sensor.
Times I have been told by a shop that I needed a new computer in my car- 3
Times I actually needed a new computer- 0
^ is correct. If the computer dies, it would usually die totally and the engine would be totally dead. But the odds of that happening are very low.
Yes, an output driver or connector or input receiver could die, but again, very unlikely.
“If the computer dies, it would usually die totally and the engine would be totally dead”
I have to disagree with that statement
I’ve replaced countless components . . . including modules . . . that “only” partially failed
A bad part is a bad part, whether all of it or only some of it has failed
:grimace:
While I recall a few computers that were totally dead most that I replaced were just confused and forgetful.
I stand corrected…
"If the computer dies, it would usually die totally and the engine would be totally dead"I have to disagree with that statement
I’ve replaced countless components . . . including modules . . . that “only” partially failed
A bad part is a bad part, whether all of it or only some of it has failed
This is really semantics. The ECU board is NOT just the computer. There are many components on the board besides the computer. If the COMPUTER dies then it’s completely dead. If a component in the ECU is dead then the board is only partially dead. But if the computer on the ECU is dead…then the whole ECU is dead.
“This is really semantics.”
No offense intended, man . . .
But I’m not in the mood for a “lesson” in proper English language usage at this time
:naughty:
I don’t know about semantics but it seems like nomenclature to me. That tin box that controls the ignition and fuel system on late model automobiles and is given various descriptive names by the manufacturers has been generically termed “the computer” by everyone I deal with in the automotive business. Early on there was a computer with a MAP sensor built into the housing and if that sensor failed the entire “computer” was bad.
Yeah, colloquially, if you’re told “the computer’s bad,” they mean the box sold as the ECU has a fault, be it in the microprocessor or elsewhere.
Ok. I guess I’m leaning towards it being the ECU.
First, I double-checked that i have spark at all 4 cylinders. It’s there, and it’s strong.
Second, I tried to test the fuel pressure. Turns out this is annoyingly hard to do. My standard fuel pressure gauge doesn’t have the right adapter. NO ONE SELLS the adapter. I tried Autozone, Advancced Auto, and Napa. Doesn’t exist, neither for Hondas or Toyotas. You can buy the super-master fuel pressure kit, but that costs more than a new fuel pump.
Anyway, when I start the car, it runs for a split second and then dies, it dies while I can still hear the fuel pump doing it’s initial priming; the initial “whirrr”.
Here was the process today:
- I have the new O2 sensor in; cleaned the spark plugs once more just to make sure it’s all clean.
- Crank the engine till it starts.
- Runs for 15-20 minutes in Park, absolutely fine. The only thing out of the ordinary is a slight puttering from the tail pipe.
- Eventually dies; I figure with the new O2 sensor, I should reset the ECU. So I unplug the Neg battery cable and wait 5 minutes.
- Restart the car, takes 20 or so tries. Let it run for 5+ minutes. It’s running a little rougher, a louder puttering from the tail pipe. Turn the car off.
- Restart the car, as always takes a number of tries. The car spits a bunch of gunk and smoke out of the tailpipe, but runs.
- Decide to try putting in gear. Try R, the revs drop and it almost dies; but I move the car a bit, try D, same thing; shuddering, drop in revs, car starts to die…I move it FWD a bit and it dies.
No offense intended, man . . .But I’m not in the mood for a “lesson” in proper English language usage at this time
I wasn’t giving you a lesson in English. I was just showing that some people see things differently. People in the Tech world make a distinction between a Computer and an ECU or System. Most other people don’t.
Ok, I’ve done some more work, nothing conclusive yet, but:
- I hooked up a vacuum gauge. Idle readings are fine, 22in Hg. When I rev the engine, one of 2 things happens. Either the pressure remains constant but the engine sounds clunky, OR the pressure rapidly changes up and down. I did the vacuum rev test 4 times, had 2 results either way. I took a video, which I’ll upload to youtube.
- Since I borrowed some tools and now have a compression tester, I did a wet/dry compression test. All readings are fine there. 180-190 dry on all 4 cyl, and 185-210 wet.
- One of the best results I achieved was by spraying carburateur cleaner down the spark plug holes, directly on the pistons. After that, the car not only idled find, but actually shifted into gear without a hitch! It’s been a long time since that happened.
- I also tried a timing light late last night. I know where to look, but I couldnt’ figure out the timing marks (couldn’t see them), and, it was late so I didn’t get anywhere with that. BUT. I did notice the timing flashes were NOT consistent. I would get long periods of consistent flashes and then randomly there’d be a very short period of no flashes. I tested a couple different cylinders, same thing. Long periods of consistent flashing, with random, short periods of no flashing. I’m using an Actron timing light, and I know that’s a cheaper model, and I’ve never done a timing test before. So I can’t say for certain whether I’m witnessing a timing malfunction or a timing light malfunction.
Long periods of consistent flashing, with random, short periods of no flashing.
With your 4-cyl, if a cylinder were not firing, you’d know by the shaking engine. If no shaking, the light is just failing to get a signal from the plug wire. Assume you know to time off cyl #1 (closest to crankshaft pulley).
Ok, I tested the timing light on another vehicle, and the timing light was always consistent.
And here are the vac test videos: