This still sounds very suspect to me.
Did they clarify what they mean by the timing being off and how was that determined? Cam timing is a mechanical issue and so is distributor timing. The amount of timing advance is a function of the ECU.
I agree with CSA. If they’re going to stab an ECU in there then they should be prepared to unstab it at no charge to you if it doesn’t fix the problem. JMHO; still not sold on them.
Get the car out of there, if it’ll start up
Out of those 2 fault codes you mentioned, the EGR code is more likely to result in rough running and/or stalling, if it’s stuck open, or is open when it’s not supposed to be
But I think you need a different mechanic, not a code puller
An ECU sounds like a guess, in all honesty
I don’t think they’ve got a handle on the car
I don’t recall if you said the car only stalled while idling or while cruising . . . I know you already cleaned the throttle body, but did you clean the idle air control valve?
Don’t they have test computers they use to confirm bad ones? Even I used to carry a spare computer to plug in to rule that out. I think I agree, its better to tow it out sooner than later.
+1 to db’s post.
The EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) valve is solenoid operated and designed to let a wee bit of inert (already burned) exhaust gas into the intake to displace a bit of air (more specifically, the oxygen) to keep cylinder temperatures from getting too high and causing excess NOx generation (as well as preignition). Remove some oxygen from the combustion process and the cylinder will burn cooler, just like a woodstove it you close the vent some. If it’s sticking, it’ll displace oxygen at times when you need the oxygen, causing rough operation and sometimes stalling.
An EGR valve can be purchased for under $100 and I’ve attached a link showing how easy it is to replace. The link may be for a different year or engine, but a bit of research will enable you to find yours. The point is, it isn’t major surgery.
You can also clean an EGR valve. Use the video to remove it, wash it down thoroughly with a good solvent like carb cleaner, and reinstall it. Might work. They do pass exhaust gas, and they do get carboned up.
NOTE: I don’t guarantee this is the root cause of your problem, but it’s the one mentioned that makes sense, and you did store an EGR code…
The guy and I talked and agreed it would be a lot cheaper for me to get an ECU from a junkyard. Even though I’m going to have to tow the car home this will be a helluva lot cheaper. (Just the part from the dealer is $1100. I didn’t even ask about install.)
The tech checked the cam and distributor timing and determined that it wasn’t mechanical, and had his diagnostic tool on it while the car stalled out, so he could see the timing was off. The o2 sensor is all black with carbon which they say is a symptom of the car running too rich, if i remember right.
So I ended up getting out of there for just north of $100. Sounds like they did some pretty thorough diagnosis in the end, so that’s not too bad. Now I just got to figure out how to remove/install an ECU.
I mean, how hard can it be?
Edit: I should be clear that I can’t remember exactly all the stuff the honda guy told me, sorry. If the above sounds weird at all, that’s surely my fault.
It’s your call, but I’d try cleaning the EGR valve before changing the ECU.
Carbon buildup on the upstream oxygen sensor will affect your engine’s operation, but it won’t typically cause stalling. Excess carbon, a byproduct of incomplete combustion, can come from a fuel metering problem or an ignition problem (including improper ignition timing). A sticky EGR valve can cause carboning as well, by causing erratic combustion due to erratic fuel metering.
I’d try a few other things before getting hung up on changing the ECU. That should really be the last choice, not the first.
It’s entirely possible for the engine to run too rich due to a faulty ECU. However, before going hunting for one what I would suggest is checking the fuel injector pulse. This can be done with a Noid Light (cheap at the auto parts house) or with the use of a stethoscope or long handled screwdriver against the ear while the engine is being cranked over.
The Noid Light should flash or you should hear the injectors making a faint clicking sound as the engine is cranked.
If the injectors are found to be pulsing and not stuck open due to an ECU fault you might consider checking the fuel pressure regulator for a ruptured diaphragm. There may be gasoline in the vacuum line leading to the regulator and the regulator will not hold a vacuum if one is applied.
A failed regulator can flood an engine, cause rich running, or even a no-start condition as engine vacuum is essentially pulling raw gas directly into the intake manifold.
Granted, an ECU can fail but that’s one of those parts that does get a lot of blame at times and my preference would be to know with at least a 98% certainty that the ECU is the problem.
You’re getting good advice here. Like I said I always carried a spare computer and plugged it in maybe 20 times over the years, but in all those times and 500,000 miles, it was never once the problem.
Yeah, thanks good advice guys, thanks. I’ll hold off on the ECU just yet.
The car stalls out whether in park or drive, whether moving or not. Until this last week, it wouldn’t stall out in Park. Even when it was having trouble in Drive I could shift it into Park and it would run no problem. But that’s changed.
I have serviced the EGR Valve on this car before…cleaned it out and checked it to make sure it worked. But that was awhile ago and the EGR could be bad by now. Clogged passages are a problem on these older hondas. I never fully cleaned out all of the passages as that involves drilling into them, flushing them out, then tapping the hold and putting a screw in. Honestly, the reason I took it to the dealer is I expected that something like that needed done. (The year or so after my car’s production, Honda did this for you at the factory…put in some screws you could take out and flush the intake passages.)
You could try the following as a kind of backyard test. There should be a black/yellow wire lead at the main relay. This lead goes directly to the fuel pump.
Run a jumper wire from the battery positive terminal to that black/yellow lead.
You should hear the pump run and, knock on wood, maybe the engine will start and run fine. This bypasses the main relay and the control related to the fuel pump operation.
This is only a test so do not leave the jumper connected as the pump will run constantly. If the engine runs and does not die at any point then it could be assumed the main relay or the relay controls have a glitch.
I would have to believe that a bad oxygen sensor would not stop the car from starting as it starts in open loop without relying on info from the oxygen sensor.
OK, after having let this car sit in my yard for way to long, I’m back at it. Here’s where I am.
-Mostly, the car will start, after a few attempts, but dies right away.
I decided to take a look at the spark plugs. I put new, honda spark plugs in the car in October, and, considering I wasn’t driving it much and that the car started acting up in Jan or Feb, they didn’t get much use. But they were coated in sooty build-up.
Since I had been too lazy to throw the old plugs out, I put one of the old plugs in the #1 cylinder. And it worked like a charm! For a few minutes, anyway. The car seemed to run great, and I could even put it into R and D. But then it died. I started it back up, it ran, but just a short time this time, and died. And after that, nothing.
So I took out the remaining 3 plugs, and put in the old plugs. No change. Start, sputter, die.
I took out spark plug #1 again, and, guess what? It was black. I cleaned it real quick and threw it back in. Car started, ran fine for a few seconds, then died.
OK. So the part of the problem with getting the car running is that the spark plugs are just covered in black gunk! But…what’s causing the black gunk?
I haven’t personally checked the timing, but the dealership claims they did, at the crank and the cam, and said it was fine.
So what’s causing the build-up?
Black gunk forming very quickly means:
Worn out engine and the plugs are oil fouling.
Running excessively rich. This could be due to a leaking fuel pressure regulator, seriously retarded ignition timing, weak spark, or a clogged catalytic converter.
Could it be caused by a seriously defective O2 sensor? I just tried putting my new one in…and the dang thing has the wrong electrical connector! It should be a female end and it’s the male end. I’m thinking about going out and buying another one right now. I cleaned the plugs off again and ran some throttle body cleaner over the old O2 sensor (it’s already ruined, I can’t break it further, right?) and the car ran fine for at least 5min before dying.
Yeah, that ECU thing is often a sign of extreme incompetence. My best friend here in Mexico is a doctor. A few years ago, he had a mid-size Chevrolet and was having problems. Since he had a “mechanic” working on it, I paid no attention.
But, one night he was really upset. The car was constantly over-heating and the mechanic said it was the ECU. He had replaced it three times already and it still overheated.
That got my attention. so, I asked him how long since he had the radiator worked on. He thought a minute and said, “Never.”
I said, “Your radiator is plugged up.”
He said, “Are you sure?”
I said, “Absolutely!”
He took to a radiator shop and the guy ran a rod down through it. No more overheating.
The doctor told me, “You are a genius.”
I answered, “Of course I am a genius. But not for that. (Heh, heh.) Are you a genius if you can tell a patient is miscarrying? Not at all. You just know. And, so I knew that a Mexican car with over 100,000 miles that has never had radiator service and is overheating has a clogged radiator. I don’t even need to look in the engine compartment.”
He sold it soon after and got a mid-size VW. That VW is the one that got the engine wrecked on the cuota from Vera Cruz and they gave him a new motor free. I wrote about that here several years ago.
He is now driving an older Windstar.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the thing with the O2 and other sensors is that they are not used by the computer until the engine warms up and goes into closed loop. Until then it is using preset settings from the computer. Once it warms up and goes into closed loop, it’ll use the readings from the sensors. So if its a problem right off the bat, it shouldn’t be the O2. You’re going in circles without addressing the issue of oil burning, fuel problem, or the weak spark as mentioned.
I changed the O2 sensor in my early 90’s Corolla last year, a simple diy job in my driveway. The OEM Denso sensor cost around $45 at my local inde parts store. It may be a more expensive sensor and a more complicated job for your car, don’t know.
Here’s something to consider though. Replacing the Corolla’s O2 sensor made absolutely no difference to the engine performance. It may have helped the emissions, but if so, very slightly. There’s a lot of O2 sensors that get replaced as a “hope it fixes the problem” when there’s actually nothing wrong with them. So suggest you rethink just blindly going ahead with their suggestion and ask a few more questions first.
Ask the shop, for example, what tests results they’ve obtained that imply there’s an O2 sensor problem. And why do these results imply the way to fix the problem is by O2 sensor replacement? What do they say?
Bing, that’s true of the O2 sensors but not of the other sensors. The MAF (and/or MAP) sensor, temp sensor, crank(cam) position and speed sensor(s) and all the others are part of the algorhythm when the engine is cold.
The reason the O2 sensors are ignored when the engine is cold is that a cold engine needs to run rich & dirty to operate. The O2 sensors would fight this need and would trip a constant CEL. There is actually no other sensor to measure exhaust cleanliness, so bypassing the upstream O2 sensor and running the engine works fine, and to prevent a CEL, the downstream O2 sensor is ignored too.
“The reason the O2 sensors are ignored when the engine is cold is that a cold engine needs to run rich & dirty to operate.”
Hm, well, I’ve been cranking the engine a lot and it rarely gets to run much. If it starts, I can keep it running by revving it hard, but when it let off the accelerator, the engine will choke and die.
George, apparently the diagnostic tool the dealership used told them it was a bad sensor, and, visually, the sensor was coated with carbon. I ordered a new NGK sensor, with the right connector this time, but…if the O2 sensor is disengaged at start-up, then it doesn’t look like that’s my problem.
Sounds like need to check my fuel pressure (i know I have it, but don’t know how much), and spark.
I suggest blocking the EGR ports and testing. Any significant vacuum leak will cause the MAP signal to indicate more fuel is needed which would cause the black plugs, EGR code and foulded out O2 sensor.