# Will there be enough electricity available to transition to electric vehicles (EVs)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Power/Fuel\ **Created:** [December 24, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066 "2023-12-24T00:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TheWonderful90s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/thewonderful90s/32/29584_2.png) [@TheWonderful90s](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TheWonderful90s)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/1 "2023-12-24T00:27:28Z")
Will renewable electricity generation methods be able to scale to cover the increase in electricity consumption resulting from a transition to EVs? What surprised me the most is from the [eia.gov](http://eia.gov) link. It shows that the total electricity production in the U.S. has remained mostly constant from 2007 until 2022. I though the increasing popularity of EVs would make it higher. Higher energy costs, and new technologies like LED lighting must have caused people to use less electricity, making more available for EVs. As of 2022 renewable energy sources account for 15.2% of electricity production, excluding hydroelectric which is 6.3%. Hydro cannot scale so I don’t think it should be included. In 2005 wind and solar power were almost non existant. Just geothermal shows up on the graph. That is a lot of progress. The problem is, wind is unstable and it needs a regular power plant to take over when the wind stops blowing. Solar is similar, and a lot of energy is needed to produce solar panels, and the life expectancy of solar panels can be as low as few decades. So renewables have scalability problems. Energy saving methods like LED lighting, and making people cut back on electricity use can only go so far. Eventually more electricity production will be needed. Will this be accomplished with more coal and natural gas power plants? US electricty generation by type data: > **[Electricity generation, capacity, and sales in the United States - U.S....](https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us-generation-capacity-and-sales.php)** > > U.S. annual electricity generation and generation capacity by fuel/energy sources and definitions of important electricity terms. > [@](#): > > (as of 2022) Currently, it’s estimated that around 1 percent of the 250 million cars, SUVs, and light-duty trucks on American roads are electric. > source: [How Many Electric Cars Are In The USA?](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39998609/percentage-of-electric-cars-usa/) ---
**Author:** ![George\_San\_Jose1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@George\_San\_Jose1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/George_San_Jose1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/2 "2023-12-24T00:34:12Z")
In EV’s favor, they can often be charged at times of the day/week when there is extra capacity available… Some generating stations may be capable of generating extra juice, but if none is needed at that time, they shut down. If EV’s need the juice, they’ll stay operating. Provides a buffer where it doesn’t require any more generating stations even though total electrical power usage goes up… ---
**Author:** ![Cavell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/cavell/32/43396_2.png) [@Cavell](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Cavell)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/3 "2023-12-24T00:57:43Z")
Xcel wants $1.4 billion for a power line to new solar farm. That does not include solar farm cost. While our coal plants need zip to keep working ---
**Author:** ![keith](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/keith/32/5518_2.png) [@keith](https://community.cartalk.com/u/keith)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 1:32am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/4 "2023-12-24T01:32:33Z")
It isn’t that we can’t meet demand, the problem is that it is so hard to get a permit to do anything these days. Some small group will popup and oppose anything that go to building up the grid. Everybody wants more power but no one wants a power plant, solar farm or wind farm next door. They don’t want the power lines going through their neighborhood. The cost of getting the permits significantly raises the cost of any project and add many years to the timeline. I see the Sierra Club running ads on my facebook page telling me to tell the TVA to use more renewables. Well about 6 or 7 years ago, I got involved in community planning meetings for the TVA who was going to build one of the largest wind farms in the Oklahoma panhandle where the only thing produced there is dust. They were going to ship the power to the Tennessee grid via a DC (direct current) transmission line. The Plains and Eastern transmission line was to part of the new National super grid. I was not opposed to it, but there was enough resistance to it that the TVA finally dropped the project. The Sierra Club did not get involved. It is one thing to stand on the sidelines and criticize after the fact, another thing to get involved and do something. ---
**Author:** ![Barkydog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/barkydog/32/2470_2.png) [@Barkydog](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Barkydog)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 1:49am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/5 "2023-12-24T01:49:24Z")
Some infrastructure would need improvement. Recall rolling brownouts etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 2:54am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/6 "2023-12-24T02:54:52Z")
The short answer is, NO, the grid cannot handle it if half the cars are EVs. And powerplants cannot be built fast enough to supply it. ---
**Author:** ![Triedaq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Triedaq](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Triedaq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:37am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/7 "2023-12-24T04:37:03Z")
The power company that supplies the electrical energy in my area has erected more new high voltage transmission lines, increased the size of the substations and have installed wind generators in hundreds of acres in the next county. I assume part of the reason is to have adequate power as more EVs replace vehicles with internal combustion engines. At the same time, the power company is promoting ways to save energy. About 6 years ago, I got involved in an energy saving program for the church I attend an serve on the house committee. For each 4 foot flourescent tube I removed, the power company paid $6. I was able to purchase LED tubes for $6.95. I rewired the light fixtures to bypass the ballast transformers and replaced over 200 flourescent tubes with LED tubes. Now I don’t know how much electrical energy the church saves, but the conversion from flourescent to LED had saved my energy. In 6 years, I haven’t had to replace that first LED tube. Before we did the conversion, I was in the church building at least once a month replacing flourescent tubes and half the time I would have to replace the ballast transformer in the fixtures. One other benefit was that once a year I was invited and attended a free breakfast sponsored by the power company. I was fascinated by the incentives offered to businesses and industries to save power. There were rebates to replace older electric motors with new more efficient motors. Big retail stores are on a system when there is a high power demand, the lighting and heating is cut back until the demand is reduced and the lighting and heating is increased. I have been in stores when the lighting is cut back and it is hardly noticeable. When I think back to earlier time periods, in 1948 the school I attended in 2nd grade, the incandescent lights were replaced with flourescent lights to save energy. Now we are replacing flourescent lights with LEDs twhich saves even more energy. The 21" black and white cathode ray picture tube television with over 20 vacuum tubes my parents bought in 1954 consumed many times the power my 42" flat screen television uses. I think with the expansion of the power grid along with saving energy in other places will go a long way to providing electrical energy for EVs. ---
**Author:** ![bcohen2010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bcohen2010](https://community.cartalk.com/u/bcohen2010)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/8 "2023-12-24T05:08:02Z")
Of course there will be plenty of clean energy to go around. The politicians said so, therefore it must be true! Just kidding! With less than 10% of the vehicles here being EV’s, our local electric utility is trying to encourage everyone to install energy-saving light bulbs and home appliances, to avoid needing to construct another power plant. If EV adoption reaches even 10%, having to build another power plant would be unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![oldtimer-11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e79b87/32.png) [@oldtimer-11](https://community.cartalk.com/u/oldtimer-11)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 6:41am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/9 "2023-12-24T06:41:37Z")
There is another industry hungry for electric power. Bitcoin minerts. They have been buying old factories in our area. The only requirement is that the factories have massive connections to the grid. They are not using the buildings or machinery but buying the sea containers that clog our ports because no one wants to pay to ship them back to China. They cut holes in the sides of the containers and install large servers and cooling fans that drive their neighbors crazy, running 24 hours a day doing massive calculations that serve only to calculate how many butcoins you are earning. This is not in the public interest and generates nothing but the opportunity for drug lords and corrupt politicans or leaders to move illicit untraceable money. In a sane world, it would be outlawed. ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/10 "2023-12-24T14:18:11Z")
> [@bcohen2010](#): > > our local electric utility is trying to encourage everyone to install energy-saving light bulbs and home appliances That sort of thing has been going on for a long time (1980s?) in various areas for that exact reason. Tighter regs on new appliances for energy efficiency as well as voluntary improvements has dropped our energy needs substantially over the years for these items… and then we add **more** to use those savings! > [@oldtimer-11](#): > > There is another industry hungry for electric power. Bitcoin miners. Another similar energy hog… Cloud storage. Basically huge data farms storing backup files for computers and phones. > **[Cloud Computing’s Coming Energy Crisis](https://spectrum.ieee.org/cloud-computings-coming-energy-crisis)** > > The cloud’s electricity needs are growing unsustainably ---
**Author:** ![asemaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@asemaster](https://community.cartalk.com/u/asemaster)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/11 "2023-12-24T14:45:15Z")
The state is trying to ban gasoline vehicle sales, which will increase electrical demands. The state is trying to ban gas stoves and furnaces and require electric heat pumps, which will increase electrical demands. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to how the increased demand will be met. I would love to see nuclear power generation. ---
**Author:** ![TheWonderful90s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/thewonderful90s/32/29584_2.png) [@TheWonderful90s](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TheWonderful90s)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/12 "2023-12-24T16:06:28Z")
> [@bcohen2010](#): > > If EV adoption reaches even 10%, having to build another power plant would be unavoidable. Typical EV is 195W / km = 314W / mile IF it is driven 8000 miles per year that’s 22 miles per day or 6.9kW-hr per day. Average home is 10,500 kW-hr per year, so 28kW-hr per day. It turns out that if everything in the average home was turned off, that there would be enough electricity to power 4 EVs per household. " **Lighting** accounts for about 15% of an **average** home’s electricity use" source: [https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/ES-EE%20Lighting\_080921.pdf](https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021-08/ES-EE%20Lighting_080921.pdf) If that 15% is right (I didn’t read the article), then turning off all the lights won’t provide enough electricity for an EV! But turning off the A/C in the summer would! > [@Triedaq](#): > > The power company that supplies the electrical energy in my area has erected more new high voltage transmission lines, increased the size of the substations and have installed wind generators in hundreds of acres in the next county. That’s another problem with wind and solar. The grid has to handle the peak capacity of the farm. A solar farm is only going to operate for about 1/4 of a day, and only on good weather. So that expensive grid sits idle most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![George\_San\_Jose1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@George\_San\_Jose1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/George_San_Jose1)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 9:54pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/13 "2023-12-24T21:54:30Z")
> [@asemaster](#): > > I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to how the increased demand will be met. This is the explanation offered up by Calif’s politicos who claim the state can be 100% renewable by 2045. > **[Can California Go 100 Percent Green?](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-california-go-100-percent-green/)** > > Experts say it can be done—with a lot depending on technological advancements and acceptable price tags As you can tell by reading the above report, not everyone agrees. & even if it is theoretically possible on a technical level, which it probably is, it is still unclear if Calif’s citizens could afford to pay the bills necessary to make the transition. Were any of the politico’s listening to me, which they aren’t … lol … , I’d suggest to apply a little common sense toward a goal of moving toward renewability over a considerably longer time frame… - Natural gas should be considered an important asset, not a liability. The natural gas is going to be burned somewhere in any event , if not in Calif, somewhere else. Banning its use in California won’t help the world-wide environment at all. - Increase the steepness of the price tiers on all forms of energy, to discourage wasteful usage, including possibly no cost at all for folks w/very low energy usage. ---
**Author:** ![LoudThunder](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/loudthunder/32/27769_2.png) [@LoudThunder](https://community.cartalk.com/u/LoudThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2023, 3:36am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/14 "2023-12-25T03:36:55Z")
There are continued warnings of possible brown outs and black outs coming to locations not accustomed to them in the near future… > **[Think the Energy Crisis Is Bad? Wait Until Next Winter](https://time.com/6226587/energy-crisis-next-winter/)** > > Europe and the world will make it through this winter but next winter is shaping up to be an energy emergency We were discussing this at recently and one of the (noun for someone who is less than smart…) who owns an EV said that will not be a problem for him. If he gets hit, she said (in all seriousness…), “If a black out hits, I’ll just idle my EV and power the house…” When we asked what he meant, he said he would “start” his EV and let it power his home through the charger… We asked about his charger and it’s one he bought and installed himself so we know it will not reverse feed the electric power and convert it to 120V AC… He’s in management in a Big Box Store… I hope his kids take after their Mom… ---
**Author:** ![Nevada\_545](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/nevada_545/32/41232_2.png) [@Nevada\_545](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Nevada_545)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2023, 4:09am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/15 "2023-12-25T04:09:04Z")
> [@LoudThunder](#): > > We asked about his charger and it’s one he bought and installed himself Didn’t he need a permit and license to install a 220 V charging unit? If he was qualified to install a charger, he should have a better understanding of current flow safety systems. ---
**Author:** ![TheWonderful90s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/thewonderful90s/32/29584_2.png) [@TheWonderful90s](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TheWonderful90s)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2023, 4:36am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/16 "2023-12-25T04:36:11Z")
Coal and natural gas were at 2913 TW-hr in 2007 for electricity generation. In 2022 it was 2513 TW-hr. Why was 400 TW-hr less electricity produced using coal and natural gas over those 15 years? Is it due to regulations shutting down traditional power plants? I thought renewables would supplement existing electricity generations methods. Is this being done to have an excuse to raise electricity rates in order to to make more money or show that renewables can be competitive? Maybe this has to do with wind and solar power causing fuel burning power plants to reduce their output when wind and solar farms are operating. When wind and solar are working it is basically free electricity so they’re going to use that. When it’s not then we rely on traditional power plants for all of the electricity. So we have to have more power plants to cover the times when there is no wind nor sun. I guess that’s the problem with wind and solar. If wind and solar account for 13.6% of generated electricity, that’s just the average. The peak output might be 3 times that. At other times the output is near zero. So they have to handle 40% of electricity coming from wind and solar, and then be ready to have nearly 0% coming from wind and solar a short while later as weather conditions change. That’s a big problem. If solar is x%, then really it is 4 TIMES x percent for 1/4 of the day, and then almost zero for the rest of the day. California is completely powered by solar from around 10AM to 4PM. Then peak demand starts a bit after 5PM, at which time the solar power is on its way not operating. This is when California has to import electricity. ---
**Author:** ![LoudThunder](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/loudthunder/32/27769_2.png) [@LoudThunder](https://community.cartalk.com/u/LoudThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2023, 9:37pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/17 "2023-12-25T21:37:10Z")
> [@Nevada\_545](#): > > Didn’t he need a permit and license to install a 220 V charging unit? I do not think that he did the actually wiring himself. I think he said he had a "dryer 220/240V plug put in and he bought the charger on-line and all he had to do was plug it in… I do not know him well, he’s not a friend, not even a buddy, just someone I know who has coffee with a small group of us vets. I Googled “220/240 volt EV chargers” and a whole bunch of ready to plug in units came up… ---
**Author:** ![jtsanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c2a13f/32.png) [@jtsanders](https://community.cartalk.com/u/jtsanders)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/18 "2023-12-26T02:24:30Z")
It’s about zoning. I can’t do any electrical work without having it inspected by the county. It is highly unlikely that an inspector would certify my work. If I do it and it isn’t certified, then I can’t sell the house. Maybe the other person doesn’t have similar zoning rules. Replacing an outlet or ceiling lamp can’t be traced, but adding a circuit can be. ---
**Author:** ![MikeInNH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@MikeInNH](https://community.cartalk.com/u/MikeInNH)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/19 "2023-12-26T03:22:01Z")
> [@jtsanders](#): > > It’s about zoning. I can’t do any electrical work without having it inspected by the county. It is highly unlikely that an inspector would certify my work. If I do it and it isn’t certified, then I can’t sell the house And if the house burns down due to the uninspected electrical work you did - your insurance company can refuse to pay. Many parts of the country - you CAN’T do your own electrical work. Any electric work needs an electric permit pulled, and only licensed electricians can pull an electrical permit (sometimes a general contractor can). ---
**Author:** ![asemaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@asemaster](https://community.cartalk.com/u/asemaster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066/20 "2023-12-26T03:40:42Z")
> [@MikeInNH](#): > > Many parts of the country - you CAN’T do your own electrical work. Any electric work needs an electric permit pulled, There’s work and then there’s work, but yes many places are involved in the money grab called permits. I have a friend from the upstate NY area, I was at his house and he was hammering apart 2 old toilets so he could put them in his garbage piece by piece over a few weeks. I asked why he didn’t just drive 15 min to the dump and pay the $20 to dispose them. He said where he’s from the cops will sit at the dump, and if they see plumbing fixtures being dumped they will ask if a permit was filed for the work. Like it’s anyone’s business if I replace a toilet or a sink. A few years ago I had a new heat pump installed. I met the inspector and I assumed he might actually inspect the installation, like wiring connections to verify proper gauge was used, look at the copper line routings to ensure proper clearance, etc. Nope. Just walked up to the outside unit, took a picture, and said “You’re all set.” Done in 30 seconds. [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/will-there-be-enough-electricity-available-to-transition-to-electric-vehicles-evs/194066.md?page=2)