My problem with rear wheel drive is not about which set of wheels propel the vehicle, but the machineries that turn the wheels. Being pushed from behind the center of mass is inherently unstable. Which is why I want to have the ability to precisely adjust the power and disconnect it when necessary. Sports cars that I’d driven before are great in this regard, not so in the trucks and cargo vans.
"Being pushed from behind the center of mass is inherently unstable."
Riding a bicycle’s inherently unstable, too. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done. It’s all about technique, and balance.
We are at 15 pages and no ones opinion will be changed with 15 more pages.
“Riding a bicycle’s inherently unstable, too. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done. It’s all about technique, and balance.”
You forgot to add proper machinery. Does your bike’s handle bar command steering thru a pressurized hydraulic system? Mine doesn’t. I steer the front wheel with the handle bar directly to correct an imbalance. I wouldn’t steer to command hydraulic pressure to the front wheel to steer then find out that my command was too much or too little. But in a rwd truck with lagging throttle response due to the ubiquitous hydraulic connection between the power and wheel, what you command may be too much and can cause tire spin; annoying with fwd but dangerous with rwd. Look at some of the finest sports cars such as the RX8 and the S2000. They generally don’t come with turbo lag.
A local farmer used to tool around here with an 80s era Ford 1/2 ton with a ton of round hay bale leveraged off the back on a hay spike. Twenty miles an hour on the highway with the front wheels touching pavement now and then while wandering all over the roadway.
With any truck, FWD or RWD, things are fine within the limitations.
I think the hybrid AWD-FWD pickup configuration that I advocate,besides having superior economy(dont mention that GM farce) would address most of the negative aspects the old school was mentioning{the rear electric drive would more then makeup for loss of front end traction on a steep grade} think hybrids are crazy?-check out what the military is looking into-Kevin [but still the thing would be big,the x-cabs now have as much internal room as the old quad cabs]
Kevin…exactly !
Just like you, I really like the idea of a small auxiliary electric motor of limited size driving the rear wheels on many fwd vehicles when needed. It doesn’t have to be large and it could run only when the gas motor is already going full bore so it doesn’t have to be anything more then a mild hybrid. The hybrid Hylander has no drive shaft to the rear and electric motors at each end. In a truck / large SUV though, a true big battery hybrid isn’t a miracle worker. It just gives the Hylander the mileage of standard RAV, which is good for such a large vehicle but IMO, not worth the big bucks unless you use it a whole lot. Batteries run down rather quickly moving much more then the regular vehicle weight and the poor aerodynamics of trucks and larger SUVs take a huge toll.
What I would like to see, is a cheap small electric motor in the back as an option on say a Fusion/Camry type fwd sedan which just added enough torque from an oversize alternator to get you up a hill, unstuck or improve handling while cornering.it would make IMHO, the standard complicated AWD units less needed on many winter cars. When more amps are needed, instead of a battery, the computer just downshifts CVT so the increased gas motor revs temporarily supplies the electric power. This stuff is easy and cheap alternatives to complicated AWD drive train and well within existing hardware and space requirements on any car currently in production.
The Element was an AWD/SUV small enclosed truck of sorts that was very popular…for a while. Then everyone’s regular Compact SUV grew in size enough to do double duty as a small truck and sales dropped. I think a lot of this truck/car mutation stems from those like me who view a small pick up as a two seat sports car with a big trunk to carry golf clubs on demand and go camping/sleeping in. But, there aren’t enough of us to make a dent in sales to make it worthwhile…now.
jtsanders I have rarely needed a pickup. I was once building a small retaining wall with concrete blocks which had been delivered with additional building materials by a local lumber yard. I discovered I would like it better with additional blocks. I returned to the yard, purchased 2 dozen blocks and requested delivery. The confused counter guy informed me that there would be a $25 delivery charge for $20 worth of merchandise!!! I told him I did not own a pickup and the $25 was fine. He still did not understand why I would pay delivery charges instead of having a pickup. I informed him that the initial price, fuel, maintenance, and insurance would certainly exceed $25 for a truck I would use every 2 or 3 years. I enjoyed seeing the 150 watt light bulb finally illuminate over the moron’s head.
Sarge thats a good point,Dag in my opinion the Elements petered out because people wouldnt get rid of them-when the market was full ,it was full.My wife finally bought one and its a nice vehicle(cheap done right) I used to ask owners of these things,when I was working on the road, how they liked them,frankly I was suprised by the love people had for these things.
Well if memory serves me correctly,Nissan was working on a concept vehicle like the “Cube” that had an electric drive on the rear for AWD,for whatever reasons it wasnt put in production(Nissan seems to do that a lot)@Dagosa we certainly have similar feelings about that occasional AWD-Kevin
“We are at 15 pages and no ones opinion will be changed with 15 more pages.”
Does that mean this is a religious experience?
So what?
If somebody wants to state their opinions some more, let them
No harm done
I also don’t believe anybody’s going to win anybody over to their side, but we’re still having a good discussion
Agreed- we need a few more lively auto discussions and what has happened to Mike from NH?-I realize I dont post as much as I used to(there are reasons for that)-Kevin
This report seems to give some credence to my observations
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/we-are-in-an-auto-bubble--here-s-how-to-play-it-202211448.html
that the automobile market is being pumped up by easy credit which enables those with poor credit to buy a new car and those with good credit to buy more new car than they possibly should.
Good article. But like most economic bubbles they run their course. I believe too that cars and trucks are evolving over the years, becoming more long lasting and there will be fewer and fewer specialized vehicles in one’s drive way. Three car families will become two and two will become one. A small FWD truck is very limited in use and too specialized. A crew cab pick up isn’t. That’s why one sells and one doesn’t. There is more of a market for Miatas out there then fwd pick ups. That should tell us something. Heck, the market for small front seat only pick ups of any drive train is drying up. I believe they are just too specialized. The wife won’t let me buy a two seater sports car ? Maybe I can convince her I need a two seater pick up. That’s the real reason some want them…Toys!
Bah. Pickups have been toys for many if not most buyers for decades. I was just behind one of those Chevy pickups where they shrunk the bed so that the fenders stick out, because they wanted the dually look without actually having double tires. What a stupid idea. The box isn’t any bigger than the one on my minitruck, but they paid full truck prices, and full truck gas money, for it. Freaking why?
And we’ve already talked about the Lincoln Blackwood with its teak-lined carpeted bed and the Escalade truck which will never haul anything more than a kid on his way to soccer practice.
The fact is that most people do not need a pickup truck. Hell, I don’t need a pickup truck, which is why I bought a very cheap one. I could have just kept renting a truck from Uhaul on the few times a year that I absolutely needed one, but I had the spare cash and the thing is useful to have around. I certainly wouldn’t have bought a new pickup in any configuration because I am not going to spend 20+ grand to haul mulch and yard waste.
In the old days when pickup trucks were used for hauling things instead of compensation toys, you didn’t see them in suburban driveways very much. You didn’t even see them in rural driveways unless it was at a farm or a ranch or something. They were seen as what they should be: A utility vehicle to get things done with.
I submit that my little pickup, which is only used when needed for hauling something, and which has absolutely no luxury features of any kind - no radio, no electric windows, not even an air conditioner - is far more in line with what a pickup should be than the limousines with boxes that are gliding around these days.
You are right in all your observations. Unfortunately not enough people have that finely tuned automotive practicality that exist in owning a seldom used pick up truck as you and I. There is in most families, like mine, another person who has to be sold on the idea that the two of us and the grandchildren who are up in the summer, must also be able to ride in our toys. The days of limited practicality and insuring and paying taxes and registering it for those few days, is a contentious argument that really does make sense when considering a two passenger sports car with a really big, open trunk.
Try manufacturing a vehicle with no radio, no air, no electric window and seating for two that rides and handles like crap. Then just wait for the horde of buyers to start pounding at your door for a test drive…and wait and wait and wait…
But the question remains. What will we buy when a 20% down payment and 24 month pay off at 6% APR is mandated?
Rod,do you really think its going there?Looking at Nissan Versas today,I believe I could afford one even though the Highway mileage seems to be hardly any better then an Altima.looked at pretty nice Sedan,the salesman was almost apologizing because it had roll up windows and gasp! no PDLs,I said wow if it didnt have airbags it would be perfect-Kevin
PS-Where are my tweels?(wheres John Galt?)
Speaking of the Nissan Versa, a friend was over today. I showed him how to “oil” his car with biodegradable oil to rust proof it. It’s a 2007, CVt and looks pretty good. He likes it a lot and plans to keep it as long as he can. So, though they aren’t the best compacts in the world, he feels for the price he paid, they are very livable and this far for him after six years, completely trouble free.
Excuse me Dag,could you give me the name of that oil again? and where to get it,I dont have access to a lift,so just spray it on as best you can? My Dakota wants to disintergrate despite frequent under side washings in the winter{differential still howling}-Kevin