White Smoke Billowing From Exhaust After Repairs

Their offer to “help” me was to put a rebuilt engine in the Xterra, with a 1 year/12,000 mile warranty on it, for the very low price (sarcasm) of only $3,800. I declined this offer and told them I would see them in court.

As I alluded to in my earlier post, you as a member of the car-buying public are not expected to have the same level of technical expertise as a professional mechanic or dealership service advisor. As a customer, you brought your vehicle to the dealer’s service department for them to diagnose and repair the problem. You didn’t bring it to them and say “I want such-and-such parts replaced”.

Their diagnosis was $3100 worth of repairs, which you accepted, presumably based on an assurance that the problem has been correctly diagnosed, and that having this work done would restore the vehicle to proper function. If there was any doubt as to the completeness or correctness of the diagnosis, or the risk that additional engine damage may have occurred, that should have been communicated in writing before any repairs were attempted.

Therefore, there are only three possible explanations for the fact that the engine has ingested chunks of the “pre-cat” and suffered cylinder wall damage, and every one of these explanations is a direct result of negligence on the part of the servicing dealer.

  1. The problem was never diagnosed correctly to begin with. Before the dealership mechanic had ever touched the vehicle, the “pre-cat” inside one, or both exhaust manifolds had overheated and broken apart and pieces of it had been sucked into the engine.
  2. The problem was correctly diagnosed, however during the repair operations of removing and replacing the exhaust manifolds with integrated “pre-cat” converters, the mechanic somehow caused the breakage of the “pre-cat” converters, and failed to properly clean this debris from the engine prior to reassembly.
  3. The problem was correctly diagnosed, and the repairs were correctly performed, however, the replacement part(s) subsequently failed, which resulted in chunks of the new “pre-cat” converters being ingested into the engine.

It is not necessary to prove which of these three scenarios actually occurred, or even which is the most probable explanation. All three possibilities point to gross negligence on the part of the servicing dealer.

The point you need to reiterate in your complaint, and in court is that you brought your vehicle to Dealer Shop for diagnosis and repair, and that Dealer Shop performed the diagnosis and recommended $3100 worth of repairs to restore the vehicle to proper operation (subject to their normal shop warranty). Immediately after having the repairs done, additional engine damage has either been discovered, or occurred due to the work which was done. Thus, Dealer Shop needs to either refund the cost of the incorrect diagnosis and repairs which did not solve the problem, or remedy the additional problem created by its shoddy workmanship or defective parts.

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Nothing more I can add except that I have never heard of converter substrate getting into a cylinder.
Also, in every single instance where foreign debris (generally a piece of hard carbon) has been in a cylinder (even BB sized) the particle will glow red very quickly and cause severe detonation which in turn leads to knocking. Sometimes severe knocking that sounds like a connecting rod bearing has given up.

There is a huge difference between “discovered” and “occurred during work”. Only the later one is a liability.

This is true if the vehicle was brought in for an unrelated problem. For example, Customer brings vehicle to Dealer Shop for brakes and the next day, the timing belt fails, and the engine is ruined. No reasonable person would hold the shop responsible under that circumstance.

This is not true if the original diagnosis was flawed, or if the mechanic and/or service advisor knew–or should have known–that the problem which was diagnosed had a high probability of causing additional expensive damage on this type of vehicle, and failed to mention this. This is really no different than a mechanic considering replacing head gasket(s) in an engine which has had coolant leaking into the oil. It is up to the mechanic or service advisor to inform the customer that the proposed repair might be short-lived, that additional expensive damage might exist, and that replacing the engine or having it rebuilt by a machine shop is the only solution which will guarantee long-term reliability.

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I’ve heard before that early-2000s Nissans have this problem, it was specifically the reason I avoided Nissans between 2000 and 2010.

This was discussed on this forum before:

VQ40DE on XTerra is a “big brother” of VQ35DE.

Here is some more from Nissan-specific sources:

I agree completely. If a piece of the old catalytic converter was sucked into the engine, then this should have been detected when I initially brought the Nissan in to be diagnosed. He said “well, we don’t have crystal balls to know these kind of things.” What am I paying $140 for up front then for them to diagnose the issue, if they can’t detect it? Funny, when I brought it back the second time they were able to detect that the catalytic converter piece damaged cylinder 6 of the motor, within hours. I’m leaning towards this occurring during their replacement of the catalytic converter. The service manager seemed convinced that the Xterra was running fine when they were done, but less than 24 hours after their mechanics touched the vehicle, it was blowing clouds of white smoke out of the exhaust. When I drove it to the dealership the 2nd time, the check engine light came back on and was flashing, and the engine felt like it was sputtering.

I spoke to the service manager and the service director, they both claim this is no fault on their service department’s behalf. They refuse to refund my money. So I’m sunk $3,000 and have a vehicle that is now in worse condition than when I brought it in to them.

I’d like to take them to small claims court to get my $3,000 back. Do you guys feel I have a substantial case against them?

Actually, based on these facts, dealer will likely get the stand that @Kevin219 neglected to stop driving his car when clear indication of the damage inducing failure was present, thus was a major factor contributing to the engine failure.

The “check engine light” on for a long time and especially light flashing is not an indication of “take your time and show your vehicle to the shop when you feel like it”. The flashing light is “stop right here and now, tow it to the shop to avoid further damage”.

It is quite likely that the catalyst was damaged when driving misfiring engine to the dealer, so it will be hard to prove the dealer to be at fault for anything but not addressing the entire issue, not only a part of it. Once the waters get muddied by the owner sharing the fault, the end result may become more financially beneficial to lawyers than to the owner.

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The only place I drove the vehicle, when the engine light was flashing, was home from work. 15 minute drive. The very next day I had it towed to Nissan. Regardless if I drove it till the engine blew up into a million pieces, I took it to them for a proper diagnosis, and they failed to diagnosis it properly, charged me $3,000, which I paid under the pretense that the vehicle would be running and functional after the repairs were done. If they couldn’t diagnose the problem correctly, fully fix the vehicle to a proper running condition and believed that there could be potential engine damage, they should have communicated this to me. I could have then said: “forget it, I’m not paying for these repairs.”

The bottom line is: YOU (not them) drove the car with misfiring engine, so you melted O2 sensors and catalysts, this is likely documented in the paperwork very nicely.

It might very well happen that the abrasive ceramic dust was already on the piston rings and making the damage, but it might require some additional time until that damage was enough to give the next set of failure indications (smoke/clunking).

Given that, if I was a dealer, I would take the next stance:

  • the customer brought in the vehicle with a history of 2 weeks of CEL on
  • customer stated CEL was blinking as he drove it and it was misfiring, that’s the complaint on hands, DOCUMENTED
  • we replaced spark plugs and coils as plugs were worn and we did not want to take chances with coils either
  • we repaired the immediate damage to O2 sensors and catalysts, which were definitely attributed to the severe misfire
  • that at the moment the vehicle was discharged from the shop, it was operating fine, customer accepted the delivery
  • we can not guess if further damage existed or not, it was not apparent at the repair time

Now, they will make a good argument that if hidden damage was present, they would not be able to observe it, since it is not “chunks” what damages the engine, but the fine abrasive dust, which disintegrating catalysts may release (or may not?).

Further, supposedly Nissan was addressing the issue after initial early-2000 set of failures, so dealer would not know for sure if this damage is likely to occur or not, this is not exactly their bowl of soup they are dealing with on daily basis.

So, the pitch will be that the damage is most likely due to the owner driving the vehicle (a couple of minutes would suffice, he drove 15 minutes with misfires) and they will absolutely deny any wrongdoing.

If I was a lawyer, I would gladly accept the case on the “pay as you go” basis, as it smells like a great cash-generator with no fast conclusion and a lot of effort to burn in.

BTW, if any Nissan’ TSB existed on the SOP for the disintegrated catalyst failure repairs for the particular model/year, that might be actually a game-changer.

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Thanks for providing your perspective. Here is mine:

I understand that driving the vehicle, even for a short period of time, could cause the damage. I get that. Whether the damage to the vehicle was caused by manufacturer defect or user negligence is irrelevant. I didn’t purchase the vehicle from this dealer and its not under warranty. I could have taken it to any mechanic, but I took it to the dealership, figuring they would do the best work on it. Guess I was wrong.

Regardless of what caused the damage, its a mechanic’s job to diagnose a vehicle properly (I paid $140 for an accurate diagnosis), to present a cost estimate to fix the vehicle to working order, and then for the consumer to decide whether they want to pay for the repairs or not. If you agree to the repairs and the vehicle only runs properly for less than 24 hours after repairs are completed, then this is not sufficient, and I don’t know anyone who find this to be a sufficient amount of time for a vehicle to run after getting repair work done. Somewhat joking with the guy behind the counter, I asked, “This thing will be good for another 100,000 miles, right?” and he replied, “It should be.”

I understand that the cat needed to be replaced, the 02 sensors needed to replaced, and the coil needed to replaced. BUT, I only agreed to pay for these repairs under the impression that the vehicle would run properly after the repairs were completed. There was no mention from the service center of engine damage, or possible future engine damage that could be caused by the old catalytic converter. The vehicle may have ran when picked up, but the functionality lasted less than a mere 24 hours.

It is documented, on the Nissan paperwork, that pieces of the old catalytic converter were sucked into the engine, damaging cylinder 6. We specifically asked the man behind the counter if there was anything wrong with any of the cylinders, when we picked the vehicle up, before we paid for it ( the first time). He replied, “No.”

So the damage to the engine occurred, from these pieces of old catalytic converter, either before I brought it in (which they didn’t detect), or from the time the mechanic replaced the converter till I started it the next day.

If it occurred before I brought it to Nissan, then its their job, as mechanics, to identify the issue. That is why I pay them $140-- to provide an accurate diagnosis of the vehicle’s problems.

If pieces of the old catalytic converter got into the engine while replacing it with the new one (which is what I believe occurred, since this issue wasn’t detected prior to repairs), then that is error on the mechanic’s side. Either he didn’t do a good job replacing the converter, didn’t clean up the debris properly, whatever the case may be, I paid for the work to be done correctly and it most likely was not.

Regardless of how the vehicle got to the point that it needed repairs, the fact is that its the mechanic’s job to properly diagnose and fix the vehicle. That is what they geet paid to do. Fixing the vehicle to run properly does not mean just when you start it up on the lot when picking it up from the repair shop, it means that it should run properly for significant amount of time after investing in those repairs.

+1
On more than one occasion, Tom and Ray spoke about this Nissan-specific problem on their radio program. IIRC, the models that were most severely affected were Sentras.

Well, this is quite a piece of information added to the mix here…

I’m not sure $140 would cover the exhaust systems tear-down or the first round of shallow diagnostics only.
I suspect only the later.
Some of the inspection could not be done until you authorized the work and they were digging in into the engine intestines.

I would be quite unpleasantly surprised if the dealer did not inform you about the damage after tear-down was completed and they discovered cylinder 6 damage. Is it really at the time of delivery when you learned about it for the first time?

Blockquote I would be quite unpleasantly surprised if the dealer did not inform you about the damage after tear-down was completed and they discovered cylinder 6 damage. Is it really at the time of delivery when you learned about it for the first time?

Blockquote

I should have been more specific regarding the paperwork. The paperwork specifying the cylinder six damage caused by the catalytic converter pieces was from the 2nd time I brought it in to the service department, after they had already did the repairs.

To answer your question: in the midst of them repairing the vehicle, and even after they repaired the vehicle, they did not mention anything to me regarding engine damage or the possibility of future engine damage, that could be caused by the catalytic converter. They took my $3,000 and sent me on my way.

It wasn’t until I brought it back to them-- after the repairs that were already done and the white smoke problem occurred, and the flashing check engine light again-- that they documented that pieces of the catalytic converter were sucked into the engine, damaging cylinder 6. Ironically, for a problem that seems hard to diagnose without getting into “meat” of the engine, they were able to reach this conclusion within a few hours of having the vehicle the 2nd time around.

JMHO, but I think any engine damage was pre-existing from around the time cats got hot and the O2s melted. As I said, every engine I’ve seen that suffered this problem had serious issues up top; meaning cylinder walls, pistons, heads, exhaust manifolds, etc.

I don’t know if anyone has had occasion to deal with substrate out of a converter but it is not that hard. Even if the theory that a piece entered the combustion chamber is true the most it would do is possibly ding up and close the spark plug gap. Otherwise it would crumble under contact, get vaporized, and blown out.
Old substrate seems to have the consistency of week old toast and I can’t see any substrate damaging pistons or valves.

So exactly what damage do they say No. 6 has?

Then presumably the damage was not obvious at the time of the first visit.

I might assume that on the second visit it was enough damage to warrant the further investigation, where likely they removed the spark plugs and used bore-scope to check on the cylinders and found damage in cylinder #6.

I would assume that any traces of the substrate were gone by that point and they only observed the abrasions on the cylinder walls, giving their best guess on why these abrasions could appear there.
Also, if we assume that all other people posting about fine dust from the substrate getting on/past the rings are right, dealer could not see any substrate during inspection, it would be firmly sitting between the rings and working as a sandpaper - slowly but surely

It is frustrating, no doubt, but it will be quite an uphill battle to prove the ill intent or negligence on their side given that on the repair attempt number one they were able to identify the root cause of a failed coil and presumably worn plugs, moreover the engine was running fine right after the repair, validating the point that their diagnosis was correct. O2 sensors and catalysts were a collateral damage and should have been fixed regardless of any other repairs.
From this standpoint, they addressed the root cause and repaired the car to the working condition.

Their fault was about not applying the crystal ball to assess if the hidden damage was there or not… If they did that, they would give you a bill for 7-8 grand… and maybe some change as the rest of the car is not in pristine condition either, so some potential failure might have existed in every other subsystem… and if the expectation is that after repair every system on the 9 years old car gets back to new, touched or not… this logic may inflate the bill to foot even further…

They elected to cut the scope of repair to the root cause and collateral damage, and it looks like they were not very good in properly communicating this.

Given the history of recent abuse, they might have warned you that it might be not the end of the trouble, but they would not know for sure, and thus it will be hard to prove in the court of law that it is their fault and responsibility, moreover, the expense may far exceed the costs of swallowing this mistake and making the engine swap to the used engine.

From the practical standpoint, you have to define what plan A / plan B / plan C you might have here.

As I see:

  1. Go litigation route via small claims court
  2. Go full-blown legal
  3. Suck up the costs, install used engine on your dime
  4. Ask (nicely!) the shop to split the costs 50/50
  5. … some another route…

#2 is definite no-go, as the chances are slim, and lawyer fees will be yours to pay almost for sure, then you add the costs of #3 atop

#1 may be possible to try out, but the appeal may be filed and the outcome will become uncertain

3/4 seem to be the realistic ones… plus you’ve got a piece of wisdom not to do what was done

That is only one hour of labor, service writers and customers expect a technician to produce an estimate in one hour or less but that expectation leads to problems like yours.

To remove the spark plugs and inspect the cylinder walls for damage would take an additional 3 hours, without an indication of a problem (like smoke) there would be no reason to ask for 4 hours of inspection time. Would you have agreed to pay $560 for the inspection?

The catalyst particles can’t get sucked into the engine while the tech is replacing the parts, the engine must be running. The exhaust ports on the engine are much higher than the converter so there is no way to spill debris into the cylinders.

Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium particles are abrasive, a pinch of this dust trapped between the piston top and cylinder will destroy the cylinder wall.

Great point!
This engine is indeed a PIA to get to spark plugs, even on the frontal side.
Pretty much entire top needs to be disassembled.

Well, I sat down with the Service Department Director earlier today, and we were able to come to a deal. I will pay an additional $3,000 for a rebuilt engine. They will absorb the cost of labor and any other little costs involved in replacing an engine, and I will pay exactly $3,000-- no more, no less. The rebuilt engine will come with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty on it, and if anything goes wrong with the engine during this time frame, they will fix the issues free of charge.

I can say that I have learned quite a bit from owning this vehicle:

  1. I will never take out a loan for a used vehicle again. This is the first used vehicle I have ever financed; I’ve either paid cash for the used vehicles I’ve owned, or I’ve financed a brand new vehicle. When mechanical failures occurred on previous used cars I’ve owned, I could just sell the car, junk the car, or get the repairs, if it was reasonable to do so. In this situation, I’m stuck paying $11,000 regardless of what I decide to do with the vehicle. No loans on used vehicles for me, ever again.

  2. I will never purchase another Nissan again. I’ve had nothing but problems with this vehicle, from the very day I drove it off the lot. In exactly 4 days, I will have officially owned the vehicle for 1 full year, and I will have invested over $7,600 in repairs into it. What initially was a $12,000 purchase has turned into close to a $20,000 purchase. Hind sight is always 20/20, but I could have financed a brand new vehicle, with a warranty, for that kind of money.
    Additionally, I’ve owned vehicles with well over 200,000 miles on them, one had over 300,000 miles on it, and I have never had the type of mechanical issues that I am experiencing with this Nissan. I’ve owned a total of 9 vehicles over my lifetime, and I’ve never had to replace an ECM on a vehicle (which I had to with this one the very first day I owned it) and I’ve never had a catalytic converter go bad, or even start to go bad. While I’ve owned this vehicle I’ve gotten oil changes at their due times and I’ve maintained other fluids at their appropriate levels. At 128,000 miles, I’m not impressed at all by the quality of a Nissan vehicle, and again, I will NEVER purchase another one.

  3. Finally, I’ve learned that when the check engine light comes on in a vehicle, even if its not flashing, to take the vehicle to get diagnosed as soon as possible, as I can now see how severe the situation can get when neglected. I’ve had check engine lights light up on other vehicles I’ve owned, and from my personal experience, it was usually relative to an emissions sensor of some sort, and didn’t severely impair the vehicle, so I would hold off on replacing the sensor until emission check time came around, and everything would be fine. When the check engine light lit up initially on this Xterra, I had a friend with an OBD read the code, and it said it was related to an 02 sensor, so based off of past experience, I figured no big deal, I’ll get it fixed when the vehicle is due for an emissions test. Well, I won’t make that mistake again.

With all that said, I plan on selling this vehicle once the rebuilt engine has been installed into it, applying most of that money towards the lien on the vehicle, while using some of it as a down payment on a new vehicle with a manufacturer’s warranty. Sure, I’ll have two loans to pay on for a year or two, but I’ll take deal with it. I want to be rid of this cursed piece of machinery as soon as possible lol.

Thanks everyone, for your input and insight!

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Great summary, @Kevin219!

On your #2:

  • I still have 2006 Pathfinder on my hands, just ticked over 170K miles and while not completely trouble-free, it is “kinda ok”
  • I used to have 2000 Altima, which served me well until 110K miles when I traded it
  • I had two more Altimas with CVTs, where transmission came to the pre-failure state (both around 100K miles) and I had to sell them
  • I had one Sentra with CVT where transmission failed hard at 40K, but fortunately was under warranty

I wholeheartedly support your conclusion #2 that this brand is cursed :frowning:

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