# Vehicle designed to be DIY'er Servicable? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 3, 2017, 12:23am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475 "2017-09-03T00:23:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![George\_San\_Jose1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@George\_San\_Jose1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/George_San_Jose1)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/61 "2017-09-06T23:25:25Z")
> [@VDCdriver](#): > > As to those tail fins, it appeared that many people really did want those signs of “modernity”. There’s a good example on the front cover of Hemmings Motor News, current issue. 55-56 Chrysler, not sure which model it is though. [https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2017/10/Looking-Forward---1955--56-Chryslers/3751171.html](https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2017/10/Looking-Forward---1955--56-Chryslers/3751171.html) ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 12:15am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/62 "2017-09-07T00:15:04Z")
> [@GeorgeSanJose](#): > > For example diy’ers are not able to access all the diagnostic features available they need without purchasing a manufacturer’s tech 2 scan tool. In the car I’m thinking about, that would come with the car. As an incremental expense, I’d guess it would add, what, $35 to the price of the car? Electronic gadgets aren’t very expensive. I purchased a DVD player for $30 the other day. Brand new. And a DVD player has a lot more complicated engineering & software involved than a tech 2 scan tool. With all due respect, George . . . you’re out of date I own the latest model Snap on Solus Edge . . . it cost about $3800. Adding european software added on top of that pro-level scan tools do a LOT . . . they give you reams of data, and they can perform more bi-directional tests than you can probably imagine. They’re not at all comparable with a $50 code reader ---
**Author:** ![the\_same\_mountainbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@the\_same\_mountainbike](https://community.cartalk.com/u/the_same_mountainbike)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/63 "2017-09-07T01:12:18Z")
> [@VDCdriver](#): > > Are you referring to the soft drink, or to…as they used to call it in the '80s…nose candy? I’m referring to the totally disastrous attempt to replace Coke with New Coke. It’s a disaster of such magnitude that it’s become a subject of study in graduate programs in marketing and business at major universities. Coke then introduced “Classic Coke” to try to recapture lost market segment, but that was of very minimal effect, I believe largely because the formula was changed to use High Fructose Corn Syrup instead of Cane Sugar and it just didn’t taste the same… it tasted like a cheap imitation of Coke. No surprise, as High Fructose Corn Syrup is a cheap imitation of cane sugar. In recent years Coke has begun to import Mexican Coke nationwide, which still uses Cane Sugar, and it’s proved to be a huge success. Coke lost millions on the attempt to replace real Coke. And they’ve spent millions over the years to try to recover lost market segment. ---
**Author:** ![shadowfax](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/shadowfax/32/13026_2.png) [@shadowfax](https://community.cartalk.com/u/shadowfax)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/64 "2017-09-07T01:40:20Z")
There’s even a conspiracy theory that says Coke did the New Coke disaster on purpose, trying to disguise the switch to HFCS. ---
**Author:** ![George\_San\_Jose1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@George\_San\_Jose1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/George_San_Jose1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/65 "2017-09-07T02:49:03Z")
> [@db4690](#): > > I own the latest model Snap on Solus Edge . . . it cost about $3800. Adding european software added on top of that > pro-level scan tools do a LOT . . . they give you reams of data, and they can perform more bi-directional tests than you can probably imagine. They’re not at all comparable with a $50 code reader I certainly can understand some scan tools models provide much more functionality than others. But that doesn’t necessarily imply the incremental cost to manufacture the best ones vs the cheapest is proportional to their selling price. Here in Silicon Valley it is a common thing for a company to sell 3 models of the same gadget, and the only difference between them – hardware and software content – are some software flags set when they pack it up in the box which prevent or allow certain optional features to be enabled. They do that so they can compete in the different price markets without having to reduce the big price they get on their “top” model. I’ve heard this termed differently, depends on who’s doing it: de-featuring, software downgrading, etc … In some cases they don’t eliminate the function entirely, they just make it less accurate for the cheaper model. All done with a software flag at the time they pack it in the box. ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/66 "2017-09-07T02:52:02Z")
We’ll just have to agree to disagree ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/48514_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/67 "2017-09-07T12:02:41Z")
> [@the\_same\_mountainbik](#): > > In recent years Coke has begun to import Mexican Coke nationwide, which still uses Cane Sugar, and it’s proved to be a huge success. The reason why the company began to import Mexican-made Coca-Cola (made with real cane sugar) is because no religiously-observant Jewish people could drink the usual stuff made with High Fructose Corn Syrup during Passover, and that led to a dent in Coke sales. When sales of the Mexican product were _much_ higher than originally anticipated, the company began to stock the Mexican-made product in other areas, in addition to areas with a large Jewish population. The fact that High Fructose Corn Syrup does not meet the high standards for kosher food is, I think, interesting… 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Rod-Knox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Rod-Knox](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Rod-Knox)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 1:09pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/68 "2017-09-07T13:09:41Z")
New regulations allow listing sugar on the label when corn syrup is actually used. ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/69 "2017-09-07T13:28:59Z")
> [@VDCdriver](#): > > no religiously-observant Jewish people could drink the usual stuff made with High Fructose Corn Syrup during Passover Respectfully asked; where did you read that? It drips a bit of conspiracy-theory-reasoning since the Jewish population is less than 2% of the US and Passover is only 8 days. Seems like that would be far too little effect in sales to even be noticed. I buy Mexican Coke because it tastes better than the HFCS version. Locally you can buy Mountain Dew (a Pepsi Product) and Fanta products with cane sugar at Home Depot. I guessed it was because of the large Latin population in the local building trades. ---
**Author:** ![TwinTurbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TwinTurbo](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TwinTurbo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/70 "2017-09-07T14:15:40Z")
The Coke fiasco was THIRTY+ years ago and was corrected pretty quickly after the outcry from consumers loyal to Coke. It lives on as one of the biggest mistakes ever but I seriously doubt the impact to Coke was felt for very long afterward. Nobody I know that liked the original Coke was so outraged that they switched to Pepsi and stayed there after the original Coke was again produced 77 days later. They instantly went back to drinking what they preferred… ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/48514_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/71 "2017-09-07T14:24:57Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > Respectfully asked; where did you read that? It drips a bit of conspiracy-theory-reasoning since the Jewish population is less than 2% of the US and Passover is only 8 days. Seems like that would be far too little effect in sales to even be noticed. Here you go… > **[The story of Passover Coca-Cola](https://jewishjournal.com/culture/food/114458/)** > > It contains pure cane sugar, is chametz-free, may taste better than the year-round beverage — and is effectively off-limits in the state of California. ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/72 "2017-09-07T15:46:02Z")
That is pretty cool of Coke! I’ve never seen a yellow-top (or never noticed) for sale at any time. Had no idea corn was not Kosher.for Passover! And I read that the adoption of “foodies” or “Cokeheads” as some call themselves, buy loads of yellowtop during Passover. I can understand that given my own preference for Mexican Coke. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![keith](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/keith/32/5518_2.png) [@keith](https://community.cartalk.com/u/keith)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/73 "2017-09-07T16:26:11Z")
Getting back to the original question, several cars were designed to be DIY’er serviceable. In the 90’s, the Toyota Corolla and the Saturn SL series were user serviceable, IF you determined that user serviceable meant things like changing the oil, spark plugs and checking all fluids. The definition of DIY’er serviceable really depends on the skills of the DIY’er. ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/48514_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/74 "2017-09-07T20:44:15Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > That is pretty cool of Coke! I’ve never seen a yellow-top (or never noticed) for sale at any time This may or may not be true in your neck of the woods, but a few weeks before Passover, in the NYC/NJ Metro Area, Costco stores typically have several pallets of the “yellow cap Coke” stacked up in front of the frozen food area, with a sign noting that it is Kosher For Passover. The supply is usually exhausted w/in a week or so, as lots of people–regardless of religious beliefs–grab a supply of…the good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/bing/32/4619_2.png) [@bing](https://community.cartalk.com/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/75 "2017-09-07T20:58:36Z")
Never heard that one but here it is stocked in the cultural food aisle with all of the Mexican foods. It is pretty expensive though so I’ve never tried it. ---
**Author:** ![George\_San\_Jose1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@George\_San\_Jose1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/George_San_Jose1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/76 "2017-09-07T23:21:08Z")
> [@keith](#): > > Getting back to the original question, several cars were designed to be DIY’er serviceable. In the 90’s, the Toyota Corolla and the Saturn SL series were user serviceable, IF you determined that user serviceable meant things like changing the oil, spark plugs and checking all fluids. > > The definition of DIY’er serviceable really depends on the skills of the DIY’er. Yes, the early 90’s Corolla – my own daily driver – did a pretty good job at being diy’er friendly. Oil, oil filter, air filter, gas filter, fluid checks, all easy. Spark plug replacement a 20 minute job. Checking valve clearances, maybe 40 minutes. Alternator and front brake pad replacement a breeze. Brake master and clutch master replacement fairly simple. Rear drum brakes, starter motor, water pump and timing belt replacement, those are not so easy jobs, but still within the range of an experienced diy’er properly tooled up. Engine computer diagnostic codes blinked out on the dashboard, no need for a scan tool. So ideally the car I’m thinking of would be something like that, but with OBD II functionality, and a factory-level functionality scan tool configured for only that make/model/year that comes with the purchase of the car. And free on-line access to the factory service manual. ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/77 "2017-09-08T00:24:24Z")
> [@Rod\_Knox](#): > > New regulations allow listing sugar on the label when corn syrup is actually used. That seems kind of deceptive ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/78 "2017-09-08T00:29:28Z")
That’s interesting . . . Here in Los Angeles we have a very prominent orthodox Jewish community. Not sure about numbers, though But I’ve never seen those “yellow cap Cokes” before Passover. Then again, I’d never heard about them until just now ---
**Author:** ![galant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/77aa72/32.png) [@galant](https://community.cartalk.com/u/galant)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 4:39am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/79 "2017-09-08T04:39:00Z")
My 2005 Camry was not much different in the respect. Didn’t even have a timing [belt.It](http://belt.It) was a bit basic for its time, rear drums, no side airbags, etc but it went to 170K miles without much of a hiccup. As far as Kosher Coke, I believe Costco sells it year round and here in LA the Vajarta (?sp) store have the Mexican Coke with real sugar. They are in glass bottles which is probably healthier than plastic too. As a disclaimer, I stopped drinking sodas 9 yrs ago because at that time my daughter decided that if it could be bad for her she would just drink water even if we were at a restaurant. That forced me to make the switch too. ---
**Author:** ![Wingerr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ac8455/32.png) [@Wingerr](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Wingerr)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475/80 "2017-09-08T04:53:29Z")
Design for maintainability is all that would be needed, whether a shop or an owner is doing the work. Mini Cooper has the thermostat buried inside a housing assembly that fails as a maintenance item rather than something with a mtbf that might be expected. The shop will simply charge the customer a rate commensurate with the effort involved. So long as you ditch cars before the warranty is up, fine, it’s of no import. Nothing wrong with designing things with sensibility, and maintainability is a good thing. It seems many have the opinion that designs that require disassembly of half the car to get to any service access is needed to make cars cooler, better, more luxurious, exclusive, or faster. Sure is easier when you don’t need to pull the engine to change a spark plug, think that’s something that could be glossed over with lifetime plugs, as long as the lifetime means the warranty period. Owners with no idea where the dipstick on the car is won’t care about any of this, but if they keep a car past the warranty, they may. They’ll drive their cars only filling it with gas when necessary and just go until it stops, and reliability nowadays will mostly allow that, and just ditch it for another if it happens. [Previous page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475.md?page=3) [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/vehicle-designed-to-be-diyer-servicable/107475.md?page=5)