Unless you live under a rock, Unions are under attack!

The rule is perform all work inside parenthese first.

Try this: 5 x 8 = 40

         8 = 6 + 2

   Therefore 5 x (6 + 2) = 40

            so 5 = 40/(6 + 2) = 40/8

I am treating the value within paentheses as one number. The original problem was that when a = b, (a - b) = 0.

You are thinking of this situation 5 x(6 + 2) = 5 x 6 + 2 = 32 which is false. Multiplication in an expression is done before addition unless the values to be added are in parentheses. In my case, I treated (a - b) as a value.

Now, in Wisconsin, collective bargaining is outlawed.

What a bunch of baloney! Where do you get your information from anyway? The new law LIMITS collective bargaining for those employees, it doesn’t outlaw it. Did you come to this conclusion on your own or did you just read it somewhere?

Tiredaq, I also hate the notion that people who don’t have children don’t benefit from quality public education being available to other people’s children. I hate even more that these same Tea Partiers would rather pay to incarcerate people than educate them. You can’t escape the reality that states that cut education funding pay more to incarcerate their criminals. In fact, it is cheaper to educate children than it is to imprison them when they become adults, and these things do tend to be mutually exclusive since being educated reduces your chances of becoming a criminal.

I believe collective bargaining for public employees in Wisconsin has been outlawed. The governor has signed the bill. Hopefully, someone will challenge the legality of the statute in the courts.

It’s not good with Democrats, not good with Republicans. Has anyone ever thought about getting out of the two party system?

The goal is to remove the parenthese, in the original equation, expressing 2(a-b) as 2a-2b is allowed and you have eliminated your parenthese. You do not need to perform a not allowed division process to eliminate the parenthese.Factoring 2a-2b as 2(a-b) is allowed but solving the equation 2(a-b)=0 does not involve dividing both sides by (a-b). You need to solve a-b(which we know equals 0) than distribute the factor of 2 over the 0 and we have a true statement 0=0. Why would you chose not to solve a-b first? as we know the solution is 0. If you can prove 2=0 and not break any rules in the process I am all for it.You give the equation 2a-2b=0 and say a=b,what do you say next?,factor the equation?then 2(a-b)=0 is as far as you can go “solve for “a” when b=5”,well that is pretty easy “a” also equals 5, “remove all parenthese”,well that is pretty easy also 2a-2b=0,all parenthese are removed. If you say “use the equation 2a-2b=0 to prove 2=0” when a=b and you want to use factoring to help you, 2(a-b)=0 leads you to the next step of solving inside the parenthese.

So lets put this in perspective, you saying that you can prove 2=0 means what when applied to deductive logic? The only place I can see you going with this is skirting the rule that you cannot have a postive conclusion if one of you premesis is negative by redefining what is a negative premise.

Remember this math problem must somehow tie into the rules of deductive logic

You are trying to construct a situation where it is proven that 2=0 but the process you are using is not allowed, much the same as having a negative premise and a postive conclusion, this is not allowed in deductive logic.You cannot have an affirmative conclusion from a negative premise and 2=0 is certainly a negative premise.

This one is not a deductive logic problem as it does not have the correct form to be considered a syllogism, it is more of a riddle than a logic problem

I saw it referred to as financial martial law. New State budgets decimating funding for cities, counties, and social programs is the cause, and this is how it will be dealt with.

The new law only allows for unions to bargain for a cost of living increase. All other things like refusal to work in unsafe conditions, ability to present grievances, and negotiate on anything but a cost of living raise are gone.

First They came… - Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


The middle class needs to wake up, before the Wall Street moguls and their political allies come for everyone else.

Good quotes. “They” are anyone with more power, like the top 10%. “They” can now legally come closer to buying elections. And we in the bottom 90% don’t seem to mind if profit is the motivation for their actions. That seems to be excusable.

When it comes to Fire Depts, 80% are volunteer in this country. I urge everyone to volunteer for Fire Depts, Rescue Squad, Homeless shelters, Battered women shelters and other worthwhile causes.

As JFK said “Think what YOU can do for your country”

You got that right, Rank and File forever.

This one is not a deductive logic problem as it does not have the correct form to be considered a syllogism, it is more of a riddle than a logic problem

Your assigned task was to present a valid answer using deductive reasoning that positively selected the correct door. You have diverted from your assignment, you are working on an “F” here.

Caddyman - Just as a correction, the Focus is built in Wayne, Michigan, not in Hermosillo. The Hermosillo plant produces the Ford Fusion and the Lincoln MKZ.

It also has 3,335 employees, far fewer than the 7500 you state.

Mike - do you really believe 1/3 of the money in every car sold went towards retiree benefits? The average car price is north of $20,000 - which would mean about $7,000 or more in retiree benefit costs per vehicle. The highest estimate I’ve ever seen was $1,800, and that was prior to restructuring the UAW contracts. Now, according to the Harbour Report, their total labor costs are just about equal to what Toyota or Honda pay.

I never thought I’d agree so strongly with you, Mike, but you’re dead on accurate.

Here in OH, which isn’t even a high cost-of-living area, teacher salaries, especially starting wages, are so low as to make it extraordinarily unappealing. New teachers in some school districts in our area actually qualify to live in Section 8 housing, yet they have to have a Masters degree to get and keep their license.

How screwed up is that?

Ok, here’s my rant… :slight_smile:

Not all unions are the same. Not all union workers are overpaid. Not all benefits are overly generous. You have to look at each circumstance. UAW benefits were very generous (but the vast majority of UAW workers I know are very hard workers), but that doesn’t mean they still are or that it means squat to police unions or teacher unions.

Here in Ohio, teacher unions are under massive attack from the GOP and much of the public. They rant about the “cadillac benefits and high salaries”. But the rhetoric doesn’t match the facts. A few points:

  1. Teachers in Ohio make, on average, just over $51,000 per year. 20 years ago, the average teacher salary in Ohio was just over $51,000 per year, when you adjust for inflation.

  2. To get that salary, you must have a masters degree, as that is a requirement for your license renewal (you can start with just a bachelors, but you have 5 years to fix that). 20 years ago, this was not the case - in other words, more education required, but no better salaries.

  3. Residents are upset about school districts asking for tax levies every few years. The only method for most districts to raise money directly is through property taxes. In Ohio, each levy is for a set $ amount to be collected across the district. This $ amount does not change with changes in property values (unlike most states), nor does it change if the population grows and schools need to be built or expanded. Even if state funding was constant, this would mean that just to keep up with inflation, schools would have to ask for levies periodically just to cover those costs (minor raises, increased gas and electric costs, etc).

  4. This method of funding the schools was ruled unconstitutional by the State Supreme Court about 15 years ago, as it relied too heavily on property taxes. This is only worse today

  5. The current shortfall for most schools is primarily because business taxes which funded schools were eliminated, the GOP backtracked on their promise to make up for the lost funds, and other state aid has declined because income taxes were slashed across the board.

  6. And finally, about those benefits… hang on with me here… it’s a wild ride.

The teacher’s pension fund is seriously underfunded. That is a fact. But let’s examine why… under the old system, teachers contributed 10% of their salaries and the state and district were supposed to match with 12%. That was better than the corporate average, but not wildly better. On average, corporations pay a 9.2% contribution (6.2% to social security and 3% in 401k matches). For reference, a worker at Walmart contributing 6% of their salary would get a total company contribution of 12.2% (6% 401k match and 6.2% to social security).

In exchange for this, the teachers could get up to 97% of their final 3 year average salary, adjusted for inflation (compounded), after 35 years of service. Benefits were not actuarially reduced if you retired early. Given the funding levels above, an average rate of return of about 7% would have fully funded the pensions. A good rate of return, but not earth shattering - so why should this not have been doable? We’ll get to that later…

Under their new system (not negotiated, but imposed), teachers will now have to pay 13% and the district/state continue at 12%. Benefits are reduced to 77% of final 5 year average salary. COLA adjustments are capped at 2% or the CPI, whichever is lower, and are non-compounded (ie, your pension is effectively dramatically reduced in value if you live a long time). Early retirement comes with actuarial adjustment of payments (I’m in favor of this change, but not all the rest).

The rate of return necessary to fully fund pensions over the course of a career with average life expectancy is no longer ~7% - it is now 4.1%. That’s lower than 30 year Treasury yields. So the state can now take ALL the pension funds, put them in what is considered the safest investment in the world, fund the pensions, AND skim off the top. That’s a HORRID deal for teachers. And they have NO social security OR survivors benefits to rely on, either.

So back to the underfunding - why did it exist when 7% wasn’t an unrealistic return over the past 20-30 years? Simple - the state raided the funds to pay for their pet projects, then to try to catch up, invested in risky and ludicrous schemes with the politicians cronies. Two classics were collectible coins and a bunch given to Lehman Brothers (at the urging of their director, who is now our Governor). That dug the hole even deeper.

Now, they complicate the problem even more with massive tax cuts, and rather than having the government and taxpayers fix the pension funding problem, they turn to the teachers and restructure the fund such that the teachers themselves pay for all of the shenanigans that went on in the past in the state gov’t.

And yet we still hear how overly generous these benefits are. How would you like it if the government took money from your paycheck and told you that you might get a pension in the future (if they don’t cut it again) that is based on a ludicrously low rate of return? You say you get that with social security? Actually, its historical rates of return for most workers are higher… and Social security only costs you and your employer 12.2% total, not 25%. Teachers would be MUCH better off with a 401(k) and social security, which they could easily cobble together to get a better than 4.1% rate or return. But no, the pension is too generous, according to our GOP and tea party.

The catch is if you LIMIT things too much, you’ve effectively eliminated them.

Ohio School Districts are (unconstitutionally, according to the State Supreme Court) funded almost entirely through property taxes that do not rise to keep pace with inflation. Funding can only be increased through raising property taxes.

Now under our new bill, they “limit” bargaining to wages, but not on anything else. There is no longer any binding arbitration. Teachers who strike are fired. Raises are capped by law at the cost of living. If the union and the school board can’t agree on a contract, the two final proposals are to be presented to the board, who then decides on the winner. In addition, the district can declare a “fiscal emergency” at any time, regardless of economic conditions, void contracts and impose new ones.

In other words, the teachers can bargain for wages, but whatever the school board wants is what they get. The money will only be made available for raises to even keep up with the cost of living IF the school board pushes for levies. This already was the case, but if they didn’t, the teachers could strike (almost NEVER happened) or ask for arbitration (what happened almost all the time in an impasse).

So what are the odds of ever getting a raise? Slim to none.

In our local district, during negotiations last year, the Union’s first offer was for NO RAISES and dramatically increased contributions to benefits. The School Board did not even respond to the offer, but declared an impasse and requested arbitration. The Arbitrator eventually decided that the teacher union’s offer was so generous that they pretty much went with it unchanged - and overall labor costs dropped several million dollars.

Now, if the school board is so obtuse to declare that offer unfair, what hope do the teachers EVER have of a fair contract under the new system? What value is their “collective bargaining” they get to keep? 1/3 of the state GOP legislators called the “retention of collective bargaining” a sham… that tells you something.

Taking a lesson from Ohio?

Our governor screamed about fiscal crisis - then gave his staff huge raises over the previous governor’s staff (for the same jobs!)

He then privatized the Department of Development, hired someone to lead it that was not allowed to take the position under the state constitution, and appointed “business leaders” to run the department… who would be paid undisclosed “bonuses” for performance… bonuses that come straight from taxpayer funds.