UAW "leans toward" striking Ford if deal isn't reached

General Discussion
21

But despite your rhetoric, their US labor force has actually been fairly steady when you account for sales growth in the US offset by productivity growth.

Sorry you are 100% WRONG…Sales have almost DOUBLED in the US over the past 10 years…yet the workforce in the US has shrunk.

I believe Indians deserve jobs supporting the products that they buy as well.

That’s the point…they are NOT buying products anywhere near their workforce…NOT EVEN CLOSE…India sales for Oracle account for less then 2%…but they have more the 20% of Oracles overall workforce…S

22

In the past 30 years…here’s the trend…

30 years ago. % of US parts and Labor
GM 100%
Ford 100%
Chryco 100%

Toyota 0%
Nissan/Datsun 0%
Honda 0%

Today % of US parts and Labor
GM 60%
Ford 60%
Chryco 55%

Toyota 55%
Nissan 55%
Honda 50%

So let’s see what the percentage will be in another 10 years.

23

MikeInNH 6:48AM Report

Sorry you are 100% WRONG…Sales have almost DOUBLED in the US over the past 10 years…yet the workforce in the US has shrunk.

Mike - you again fail to consider productivity growth!

24

And you fail to consider how many new workers are entering the workforce every year. If companies can’t keep up with that…then we have high unemployment. Manufacturing jobs are declining…Like it or not…those are the FACTS.

As I said…let’s see what those numbers say in 10 years…My guess is…

GM/Ford and Chryco (if they are still around) will be down to about 30%…And I suspect Toyota/Nissan and Honda (not to mention Hyundai or the other Asian companies) will actually increase.

Eventually when our wages have dropped to the third world wages level…then manufacturing will start coming back.

25

In the past 30 years…here’s the trend…

30 years ago. % of US parts and Labor
GM 100%
Ford 100%
Chryco 100%

Toyota 0%
Nissan/Datsun 0%
Honda 0%

Today % of US parts and Labor
GM 60%
Ford 60%
Chryco 55%

Toyota 55%
Nissan 55%
Honda 50%

So let’s see what the percentage will be in another 10 years.

First off, your numbers from 30 years ago are completely false.

Second, your numbers from today are wrong, too. Lets take your “best” import brand, Toyota, and compare it with what you claim is the “worst” domestic brand, Chrysler.

Using Chrysler’s sales through August 2011 and Toyota’s 2010 sales (to correct for the fact that the earthquake skewed their numbers):

Chrysler:

200 (81%) : 49,841
Sebring (84%) : 2,380
300 (73%) : 18,931
PT Cruiser (40%) : 1,328
Town and Country (80%) : 61,512
Compass (75%) : 29,591
Patriot (75%) : 38,841
Wrangler (78%) : 80,540
Liberty (78%) : 43,962
Grand Cherokee (71%) : 75,189
Caliber (73%) : 28,038
Avenger (83%) : 40,418
Charger (70%) : 47,359
Challenger (70%) : 26,829
Viper (82%) : 138
Journey (38%) : 36,304
Caravan (82%) : 75,627
Nitro (80%) : 16,498
Durango (69%) : 34,157
Dakota (84%) : 9,949
Ram (70%) : 153,452

That’s a weighted average of 73.7%

Now for Toyota:

Yaris (0%) : 40,076
Corolla (35%) : 266,082
Camry (80%) : 327,804
Venza (75%) : 47,321
Avalon (80%) : 28,390
Prius (0%) : 140,928
xB (0%) : 20,364
tC (0%) : 15,204
xD (0%) : 10,110
ES (0%) : 48,652
HS (0%) : 10,663
LS (0%) : 12,275
SC (0%) : 328
GS (0%) : 7,059
IS (0%) : 34,129
Sienna (75%) : 98,337
Rav4 (60%) : 170,877
FJ Cruiser (0%) : 14,959
4Runner (0%) : 46,531
Highlander (70%) : 92,121
Land Cruiser (0%) : 1,807
Sequoia (80%) : 13,848
Tacoma (50%) : 106,198
Tundra (80%) : 93,309
LX (0%) : 3,983
GX (0%) : 16,450
RX (65%) : 95,790

That’s a weighted average of 48.5%.

You’re DEAD WRONG. Despite all your rhetoric, Chrysler’s domestic content % has not gone down appreciably in the past 15 years, and Toyota’s hasn’t gone up appreciably in the past 15 years, either.

PWNED!

26

Didn’t say 15 years…did I??? …Said 30 years…didn’t I???

As I said…in the past 30 years…GM/Ford and Chryco have DECLINED…NOT…while Toyota/Nissan and Honda have INCREASED…

As I said…let’s wait and see in 10 years…but you keep hoping?? I’m right with you…I HOPE they do…but it doesn’t look like they will. GM is already starting to ship vehicles to the US made in China. And let’s NOT include Mexico and Canada in the mix…Let’s stick with the United States.

27

I don’t know where you’re getting your stats from!!!

Chryco had only ONE vehicle in the top 10 made in America vehicles this year…

Just a quick look…the Accord went from 60% American content to 75% American content since the last survey…that’s an INCREASE isn’t it???

28

Mike -

You’re using cars.com’s list, which does NOTHING but rank order vehicles with high domestic content by sales numbers. Cars.com doesn’t count the Chrysler vehicles with high domestic content because they don’t have sales numbers as high as the Camry. Look at NHTSA (http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Part+583+American+Automobile+Labeling+Act+(AALA)+Reports) for accurate information.

And ONE vehicle doesn’t make a trend. The Accord was 70% in 2005, then Honda CUT domestic content to 60%. That’s a DECREASE, isn’t it?

And again, GM IS NOT SHIPPING VEHICLES FROM CHINA TO THE US! You’re completely making that up!

But you want to talk trends - ok - here are Toyota and Chrysler’s numbers from 2005:

Chrysler:
Sebring (76%) : 90,294
Concorde (?%) : 210
300 (72%) : 144,068
Crossfire (1%) : 14,665
PT Cruiser (50%) : 133,740
Pacifica (86%) : 85,557
Town & Country (81%) : 180,759
Wrangler (82%) : 79,017
Liberty (82%) :166,883
Grand Cherokee (72%) : 213,584
Neon (84%) : 113,332
Stratus (75%) : 99,648
Intrepid (?%) : 298
Charger (72%) : 44,804
Viper (83%) : 1,652
Magnum (74%) : 52,487
Dakota (79%) : 104,051
Ram (75%) : 400,543
Caravan (81%) : 226,771
Durango (79%) : 115,439
Ram Van (?%) : 405
Sprinter (?%) : 19,578

Weighted average (giving 0% to sprinter, Ram van, concorde, and intrepid since the % wasn’t listed) : 74.9%

Toyota:

Echo (0%) : 1,544
Corolla (75%) : 341,290
Celica (5%): 3,113
Camry (70%) : 431,703
Avalon (70%) : 95,318
MR2 (5%) : 780
Prius (0%) : 107,897
xA (0%) : 28,033
xB (0%) : 54,037
tC (0%) : 74,415
ES (5%) : 67577
LS (5%) : 26,043
SC (5%) : 8,360
GS (5%) : 33,457
IS (5%) : 15,789
Sienna (90%) : 161,380
Rav4 (0%) : 70,518
4Runner (5%) : 103,830
Highlander (5%) : 137,409
Land Cruiser (10%) : 4,870
Sequoia (60%) : 45,904
Tacoma (55%) : 168,831
Tundra (70%) : 126,529
LX (5%) : 8,555
GS (5%) : 34,339
RX (55%) : 108,775

Weighted average: 47.0%

So, over the last 6 years, Chrysler has decreased their domestic content % by 1.2%. Toyota has decreased their domestic content by 1.5%. Which is greater?!

You’ve posted one complete falsehood after another… and frankly, I’m tired of having to correct your misinformation and lies.

PWNED!

29

Better link…

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/inthenews/07-10-06.html

I stand behind my statement that GM/Ford and Chryco are decreasing US labor and parts…while Honda/Toyota and Nissan are INCREASING US labor and parts…It’s that simple…And as I said before…Let’s wait 10 years to find out what the % is. I’d be willing to put MAJOR money on who the winner will be.

American content is only limited to Parts and labor…but NOT raw material. The big 3 use to buy 100% of it’s steel here in the US…NOT ANY MORE…Much is made in Mexico or even imported from Korea and Africa. Again a decline…but it’s NOT reported because the raw material is then used in the US to create parts.

And let’s not forget robotics…Chryco is huge in using Robotics from Honda and Toshiba (just to name a few). Asian robotics to replace American workers. Not saying they shouldn’t use robotics…but there are American alternatives. Ford use to have their own Robotic division…Have no idea what happened to that.

I guess you think loosing American manufacturing is GREAT for our economy…I DON’T.

30

And I stand by my statement that you’re making all sorts of things up - I’ve provided you with hard, verifiable data. You’ve provided hypotheticals and assumptions. You’ve provided claims that were proven completely false by the hard data I provided.

And you continue to falsely say that I think loosing (sic) American manufacturing is good - which I have said countless times I do not - but I refuse to attack a company that provides a high number of American jobs relative to their business in the US while praise the company that provides a low number, especially when that gap isn’t closing (the Toyota - domestic gap hasn’t narrowed since about 1996). You seem to think its ok to bash the company providing the jobs and praise the company that doesn’t. I guess according to you its just peachey when 2 jobs are lost from one company and replaced with 1 from another.

31

What am I making up…

GM/Ford and Chryco…back some 30+ years ago…had 100% labor and parts here in the US…you deny that??

Then using YOUR data…GM/Ford and Chryco have SOME cars at 90% but others well below that…you deny that too???

Nissan/Honda and Toyota some 30 years ago were selling cars in the US…with 0% build content from US workers and labor…you deny that???

Now many cars by Nissan/Honda and Toyota are building many cars here in the US with American workers and American parts…Some vehicles have more American made parts in them then GM/Ford or Chryco…you deny that too???

Simple math…GM/Ford and Chryco are shrinking it’s US labor and parts content…while Nissan/Honda and Toyota is growing…

You seem to think its ok to bash the company providing the jobs and praise the company that doesn’t.

If you want to keep supporting a company fine…GREAT…I’m not…They have to make HUGE changes before I do. You keep trying to show the discrepancy between cars sold and number of workers…Since 96 Honda/Nissan and Honda both have increased the number of workers and US parts used to build their vehicles…I will agree that it hasn’t kept up with their sales…It takes time to shift production to keep up with demand. They are and will continue to…

As I said…let’s wait 10 years…How many cars from GM will be made in China by then??

32

Mike -
YOU claimed that Toyota and Chrysler have equal domestic content. I showed you that was blatantly false. YOU claimed that Toyota is increasing theirs while Chrysler is decreasing theirs. I showed you that is blatantly false.

YOU have repeatedly claimed that GM is now importing vehicles from China, another false claim.

It is also completely false to say that GM/Ford/Chrysler had 100% domestic content 30 years ago. 30 years ago, Ford had 6 plants in Mexico shipping parts and/or vehicles into the US (fewer today). 30 years ago, Ford was importing engines from Germany. They were importing Fiestas from Europe. How do you do that and have 100% domestic content?

Almost nothing you claim is true.

33

Eraser is correct. I remember way back when perusing a dealer trade publication after lunch and there was an article in there about out of country content. While it’s been so many years I have forgotten the percentages, I do remember that Chrysler led the Big 3 with a mid double digit content with Ford and GM trailing in the lower double digits.

Pop the hood on a 1978 Dodge Omni and what do you see? A Made in Germany VW Rabbit motor. Do this on an early 80s Omni and you will see a Mitsusbishi engine.
The same goes for a procession of other Chrysler vehicles including the Challenger (sacrilege) and the K cars.
Another could be the 80s era Pontiac LeMans but the list is quite lengthy.

Even Harley Davidson, whose owners love the American or else mantra, ride around on HDs with Japanese, Mexican, Chinese, and Australian parts. HD started using Keihn carburetors and Showa forks/shocks back in the early 70s and even their line of Screaming Eagle accessories and replacement parts are made out of country.

34

I noticed you didn’t address anything I asked??

YOU have repeatedly claimed that GM is now importing vehicles from China, another false claim.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-to-import-china-made-vehicles-by-2011.html

It is also completely false to say that GM/Ford/Chrysler had 100% domestic content 30 years ago. 30 years ago, Ford had 6 plants in Mexico shipping parts and/or vehicles into the US (fewer today).

You’re right…It wasn’t 30 years ago…it was 40…but my point is STILL VALID…Which you’ve yet to address…GM/Ford and Chryco are decreasing US labor and parts in their vehicles…while Toyota/Nissan and Honda are increasing…But keep blindly supporting China GM…But you won’t admit that will you.

35

And my 73 Chevy Vega had an Opel transmission. I should have said…NEARLY 100%. But it was so close to100%…probably even higher then 99.9%. And Honda and Toyota and Datsun were selling cars in the US 40 years ago…and NOT ONE of them was made in the US…All imported…Now they have a very large presence with many of their vehicles having as high as 80% US labor content and parts…So yes…The asian vehicles started with NOTHING…and grew to their presence now…while GM/Ford and Chryco have been outsourcing MORE AND MORE.

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/001573.html

http://www.outsaurus.com/2011/01/13/outsourced-general-motors-gm/

http://economyincrisis.org/content/american-automakers-outsourcing-jobs-mexico

I for one learned years ago that GM is NOT in the business of making cars…Just making as much money as possible without regard to their workers or their customers. Extremely high incentives to make as much money as possible for the next quarter has created an atmosphere of selfish greed. I for one am NOT going to blindly support that.

36

I agree. As a matter of fact I seem to recall that for some time some years ago the largest part of their profit was coming from their financing operation. I might be remembering incorrectly.

37

I read a different article about the issue in yesterday’s Baltimore Sun (from Reuters). The main sticking point overall seems to be that the union wants to eliminate the two-tier pay system. Young workers make half of what older workers make same job. The auto manufacturers probably need the two tiered system to continue to manufacture cars in the USA long term. Union management has a difficult decision to make on this issue.

38

I read a different article about the issue in yesterday’s Baltimore Sun (from Reuters). The main sticking point overall seems to be that the union wants to eliminate the two-tier pay system.

I’ve said the before…the manufacturers AND THE UAW need to sit down and discuss reasonable concessions. Doesn’t look like either side is willing to.

39

The only thing worse than the heavy hands of the UAW are the even heavier ones of the teachers and public employees unions.

40

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110913/OEM01/110919934/1306