Timing Belt vs Timing Chain

All a transmission can do is allow the engine to turn at the best RPM for the situation. A one cylinder engine would rev at its peak HP to move a modern car, but even then, there are limits as to what 12 or so HP could do. A super wide range CVT or any transmission cannot deliver more than the HP the engine puts out. Then eventually as the speed increases, so does mechanical and aerodynamic friction. When you reach the point where the HP required to maintain the speed is the max the engine can produce, thats as fast as you can go. If you hit an uphill, the speed will drop dramatically.

Many old FWD engines did not have a front motor mount. They mounted just like the the longitudinal engines of the RWD, in fact the early ones started as RWD and then were switched to FWD. My 1.4 L engine in my 79 Dodge Colt did not require removing the crank bolt either as the hole in the pulleys was larger than that bolt.

So three small bolts to remove the front pulleys from the crank gear, ten small bolts to remove the timing belt cover and one bolt to loosen the tensioner, belt change in about 20 minutes with only a 10, 12 and 14mm wrenches or sockets.

A supercharger and turbocharger paired together makes some sense. Start out on the supercharger because it derives boost from incoming air and then augment it with the turbocharger that runs on exhaust. It would avoid the turbo lag and you could use a smaller engine. Twin turbos provide a lot of power from small engines now, maybe the super/turbo would provide decent, useable power Ina small engine with good gas mileage.

I haven’t seen them combined yet, but it’s an interesting idea.

There were some piston engine airplane engines that were supercharged and turbocharged

Alot of old Detroit diesels were supercharged(necessity) and turbocharged(more power) talked to a guy the other week that something like a 16V-143 engine on his trailer(it was one of a pair for a tugboat) that old detroit weighed about 11,000 lbs,it was supercharged and naturally aspirated believe it or not,the old detroits were 2cycles and needed the rootes blower for scavaging the crankcase or something,now at the old hercules plant there was a 16V-detroit something or the other hooked to a 110KW genset that had 4 turbochargers on it(bet that thing made a sweet racket)-Kevin

“There were some piston engine airplane engines that were supercharged and turbocharged”

No, “turbo-supercharged” in av-speak means that you have a turbocharger that provides boot in excess of the NA charge at sea level; I.e. you put a turbo on a 180HP engine…and it ouptuts 220HP.


The alternative is “turbo-normalized,” which is where a turbo is used to provide sea-level power up to a specified altitude…but without a HP increase; I.e. a 180HP engine produces 180HP up to 12,000’, but is not approved to produce anything more than 180.


Piston engines have used turbos, they’ve used turbo-compounding…but I don’t think they ever have used turbos with superchargers.(As a steady-state power output, turbo lag is a non-issue, mostly.

@meanjoe75fan‌

What do you mean, telling me no

I can’t remember the name of the book, magazine, etc.

And I can’t remember the name of the airplane

But I know what I read . . . I’ll grant you it wasn’t recently

By the way, if you yourself say “but I don’t think they ever have used turbos with superchargers” . . . that means you’re not even sure

That means you shouldn’t be contradicting me, yes?

“What do you mean, telling me no”

Uh, the opposite of yes? Negatory, nix, no-can-do, et. al.

I’m telling you flatly, @db4690, that you are misinformed on what the term turbo-supercharging means. As in, a Teledyne Continental Motors TSIO-540 is a turbo-supercharged(TS) 540 cu in, fuel-injected(I), flat 6 (O), engine. It is rated at more than the normally-aspirated IO-540 (around 300). A TIO-540 is a turbocharged engine without a permitted power increase.

“By the way, if you yourself say “but I don’t think they ever have used turbos with superchargers” . . . that means you’re not even sure”

No, it means they’ve done some pretty weird stuff in aviation history, and it wouldn’t surprise me if somebody, somewhere, tried some odd thing as a one-off. As a prudent poster I threw that in because I wouldn’t want the likes of you playing “gotcha!” because of the 1917 Napier Smegma, or something.

Why on earth would you use a super on an av engine anyways? You set-n-forget the power, so there’s no advantage to a super’s immediate response.

Produce your evidence of a simultaneously turbocharged AND supercharged engine, or ST(H)U. Oh, and quit faking that back injury! :wink:

I think the use of both superchargers and turbochargers on the same engine has been done a number of times in the past and in the very recent past also.
I vaguely remember this also being done on some aircraft although I have never personally seen it and cannot remember the types.

It’s referred to as Twincharging as in the cut and paste below.

Volkswagen uses the “TSI” brand for all its direct-injection turbocharged or twin-
charged petrol engines. In addition to a turbocharger, the “Twincharger” is fitted with
a mechanical supercharger to ensure even torque generation.

@meanjoe75fan‌

http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/geturbo/geturbo.htm

“Produce your evidence of a simultaneously turbocharged AND supercharged engine, or ST(H)U. Oh, and quit faking that back injury! ;-)”

You asked for proof . . . but not very nicely

You got it

And about that back injury . . . what the heck are you talking about?

I was born with scoliosis . . . why would I make up something like that?

Some months back, when I mentioned my scoliosis, somebody had the balls to disagree with me. I forgot who it was, so I won’t be pointing any fingers

If that’s what you’re talking about

If that’s not what you’re talking about, then you should explain. I’m sorry, but I can’t always read between the lines

And if you meant it as some joke, well it wasn’t very funny, not in my opinion

Here’s some more reading material . . .

http://www.aviation-history.com/republic/p47.html

ST(H)U . . . normally I wouldn’t have said this, but you left me no choice

Thank you very much

Please eat your humble pie like a man and let it be

As politely as I can muster:

Those are turbos, @db4690. A turbo’s full name is turbo-supercharger…it’s a turbine-driven supercharger. Just as all alternators are generators, but not all generators alternators, all turbos are supers, but not all supers are turbos.

You are confusing the terminology, plain and simple. It’s an honest mistake…I made it too, the first time I saw it in print that way.

If it helps you visualize it, the “supercharger” is the thing in the intake. It can be driven by a belt, an exhaust turbine…or a leaf blower, LOL. The “turbine” (i.e. turbo) is the thing in the exhaust, which can drive a supercharger, or even help spin the crankshaft.

That is what ALL of those links refer to…a “turbo[driven]supercharger.”

“And about that back injury . . . what the heck are you talking about?”

Short memory, I guess…about a month ago, you “called me out” when I accidentally hit “disagree” on my Android on a post of yours, which mentioned back pain. You flew off the handle, saying how dare I say you’re making up the back pain. I (humorously) referenced your prior disproportionate response when addressing your current disproportionate response. I DID use the smirking emoticon, to show I was being tongue-in-cheek.

Oh, well, no hard feelings, and hopefully you learned something today!

@Meanjoe75fan

Okay, fine about the terminology

I’m not an airplane guy, and I didn’t really read those links

But I’m not backing down about reading about airplanes that were supercharged and turbocharged

I can’t provide the proof

If you know I’m wrong, so be it

Be satisfied in knowing that I’m wrong

I’ve been wrong plenty of times, and I will be again

I just changed your flag to like, because of your explanation

As for the ST(U)H it’s easy to miss those smiley and smirk faces, if you’re not actively looking for them. That is why I was upset about it

No hard feelings

By the way, that humble pie tastes great! I’ll save you some, in case you’ve got a sweet tooth

That’s as close as I’ll come to saying I messed up

While a Turbo Charger may be the same as a Super Charger…they are both force induction systems. Turbo is run off of turbines which is spin from the Exhaust…Super charger is a motor that sits on top of the engine and is spun directly off the engine.

And there are vehicles with a Super charger AND Turbo Charger.

http://www.horsepowermonster.com/2011/twin-turbo-mustang/

probably talking about me. as if my shame needed to be added to.

I also have only one lung left too, if you d like to make fun of that as well…

I do. one lung wes is my favorite.

they also called me the penguin at work, because of the way I had to stretch and pop my pelvis while I walked the last few yrs.

I did the work of three men for 30 yrs , perhaps I should have taken that long walk with my shotgun when I could no longer stand the pain. but I was told it would be selfish, and to man up and except that I was a cripple.

so now I m a poor cripple who can no longer afford a mechanic,

it takes me two days to do a 2 hr brake job with out hurting too bad.

in case you are wondering, I first hurt my back at 15 OR 16 (1983) lifting bags of mortar at work, but it wasn t until 1999 that I was in pain every second of every day from sciatica and other disc problems. my lung was removed in jan 2010, I worked until dec 2012. when I dropped to 110 pounds from the stress of my pain and the problems it caused.

it was either stop or die. then the shame of not working made me want to die too.

this forum was a big help by the way, still is in fact.

but have your laughs, I m strong again now. in my mind at least.

sorry about the last post, I made it before I read further and saw your explanation of the back thing.

it was easy to take the wrong way. as you can see I m still a bit sensitive and ashamed not to be working. its not too bad when I can stay in bed all day after I over do it. not many bosses will only let you work when you feel up to it. or let you work for 30 minutes then rest for an hour.

lather rinse repeat.

I decided not to edit out my response on the odd chance that someone may see it and avoid teasing someone when they are not able to take it anymore.

I am lucky to be alive and still have my family.
my first reaction was to kill myself when I could no longer work and I proceeded to drive my family away so that they would not miss me as much.

luckily I found the path of jesus and followed it to where it led. here for one.
back to my family for another.

I can say that we are happier now than we had ever been. I am happier now too. and somehow we seem to always have just enough money to live fairly well. I don t know how as my income has dropped in half, at least. must be gods hand…

sorry to get personal, but I wanted to say that words are very powerful things and can hurt more than fists. i realize that was not your intent now, but just realize that words can hurt and they help.

i spent many years hiding my weakness. a steel shop is a hard place where only the strong survive. now my life is pretty much an open book and my mistakes, faults and weaknesses are legion. perhaps one person may read this and take heart or be kind and that is worth opening up my can of worms i think.

not being the man (or woman) you once were does not make you useless. just different, with different things to offer. hang in there

I didn’t realize db4690 had scoliosis…I just knew he went off the handle, once, when I bumped the “disagree” button accidentally.


I never intended to make fun of a disease…I’ll go back and edit that bit if he wants me to.

Christ I leave this thread for a couple days and you kids are all fighting! I’ll turn this car around!

Everybody cool out! Go get some oil and grease under your fingernails! :slight_smile:

My the Good Lord bless you wesw,you have many years left(sometimes I dont like people reminding me of that)but I learned a long time ago never to belittle the pain of others,just because you cant do what you used to do doesnt mean you still cant accomplish many good things,You are an asset to the forum and I appreciate your intellect (as I’m sure others do) the decreasing ability thing is starting to accelerate on me too,so I do what I can and accept help graciously and help others when I can-Kevin

Hang in there @wesw. You are welcome here any time and I can exhibit a bit more patience with your responses knowing the difficult of your situation. Physical problems can generate a lot of emotional stress, too.