# The wolf in sheep's clothing EVs vs ICEs **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 29, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678 "2021-09-29T19:14:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Barkydog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/barkydog/32/2470_2.png) [@Barkydog](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Barkydog)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2021, 11:54pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/21 "2021-09-29T23:54:09Z")
Local supermarket installing maybe 14 tesla charging stations! ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 12:02am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/22 "2021-09-30T00:02:28Z")
That is great. This is in California, right? I’ve got one charging station at my disposal. Need to invest here…or leave us alone! Lol. I’m fine either way. We (WE) just need to see if EV’s are practical. Or make them practical before we proceed. ---
**Author:** ![Barkydog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/barkydog/32/2470_2.png) [@Barkydog](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Barkydog)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/23 "2021-09-30T00:04:07Z")
Kenosha WI for new Tesla charging stations. Woodmans grocery store. ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/24 "2021-09-30T00:06:34Z")
I thought you were in CA? WI, that is great. ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/25 "2021-09-30T00:08:34Z")
Brett F was from around here if you are a GB fan lol. My wife’s older sister shunned him in college at USM. Funny story. To me, anyway. Lol ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/26 "2021-09-30T00:17:26Z")
I’ve got to tell someone that story. Too funny. Message me for it lol. Brett is maybe on my level, or was. I think maybe cockier and worse. But a good guy, I think. Or at least a damn fine football player. Maybe not an upstanding guy, but I won’t condemn him. Wife and her sister are higher class than him (certainly) and me (sadly). Lol. I get crazy in a bar. Brett lost his mind. Lol ---
**Author:** ![George\_San\_Jose1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e5b9ba/32.png) [@George\_San\_Jose1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/George_San_Jose1)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 12:26am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/27 "2021-09-30T00:26:25Z")
Interesting thread. Electricity cost here in San Jose, CA is about 30 cents/kwh off-peak times, and about 45 cents/kwh during peak times ( 3 pm to 9 pm). Presumably you’d charge your car during the night, so it would cost 30 cents/kwh. I expect the actual cost is a little less 30 cents/kw b/c of various rebates, nothing is simple these days. The problem of two many chargers in the neighborhood working at the same time is an important consideration. One transformer serves about 10 houses. The one for my abode got zapped by lightening a couple years ago. I heard the guy who climbed up the pole to replace the fuse talking to the central dispatch folks, asking what the power rating was. They said it was a 40 KVA, which means it is rated for 40,000 watts. Or 4,000 watts per house. A microwave uses around 1,200 watts at full power, so there’s not a lot of extra power in the 10 home circuit available without overloading the transformer. If a car-charger used 75 amps at 110 volts, that’s around 8,000 watts. Even if the charging were done at night when little to no other electricity was being used, it appear the neighborhood transformer’s fuse could blow if there were as few as 5 cars among the 10 houses all charging at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![texases](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/texases/32/862_2.png) [@texases](https://community.cartalk.com/u/texases)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/28 "2021-09-30T01:34:08Z")
> [@Barkydog](#): > > Local supermarket installing maybe 14 tesla charging stations! Do you mean EV chargers? Or are they only for Tesla? That would be a major mistake, to me, if any public money was used. ---
**Author:** ![Barkydog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/barkydog/32/2470_2.png) [@Barkydog](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Barkydog)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:16am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/29 "2021-09-30T02:16:31Z")
I do not know, but each charger says Tesla. They look like this. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/original/3X/9/e/9e95e4e5dc3b0fe58e259dfac3981d056a58e81f.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/bing/32/4619_2.png) [@bing](https://community.cartalk.com/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:51am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/30 "2021-09-30T02:51:15Z")
I see they are well guarded to make sure no Fords plug in. ---
**Author:** ![texases](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/texases/32/862_2.png) [@texases](https://community.cartalk.com/u/texases)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:59am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/31 "2021-09-30T02:59:34Z")
Turns out there are s few different typse of ‘Tesla’ chargers. The ‘Supercharger’ only works with Teslas, the others can work with different brands if you have an adapter. For a technology that needs to get infrastructure installed, these different charging standards are NUTS! ---
**Author:** ![MikeInNH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@MikeInNH](https://community.cartalk.com/u/MikeInNH)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 1:19pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/32 "2021-09-30T13:19:44Z")
> [@texases](#): > > Turns out there are s few different typse of ‘Tesla’ chargers. The ‘Supercharger’ only works with Teslas That’s for now. [Elon Musk says Tesla will open Superchargers to other cars in 2021 (cnbc.com)](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/20/elon-musk-says-tesla-will-open-its-chargers-to-other-electric-vehicles.html) The big obstacles with electric vehicles is the battery. Lithium batteries are the big players NOW. But that is changing. As I’ve stated in this forum many times there are many battery startups in this country and investors are putting BILLIONS into them. I personally know of 4 in the Boston MA area (all associated with MIT or Harvard). Within 5-10 years Lithium batteries will be obsolete. Graphene is my personal favorite. We don’t have to rely on any country for Graphene. > [@bing](#): > > With China controlling the majority of lithium from Afghanistan, what could go wrong with batteries from China? Or is that the plan in the first place? What batteries are made in China? [the\_supply\_chain\_for\_electric\_vehicle\_batteries.pdf (usitc.gov)](https://www.usitc.gov/publications/332/journals/the_supply_chain_for_electric_vehicle_batteries.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/33 "2021-09-30T14:05:52Z")
Good report! Page 10 of the report… Cobalt from the Congo, Graphite and Lithium from China, Lithium from Chile, Argentina and exploding demand for all of them. ---
**Author:** ![shadowfax](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/shadowfax/32/13026_2.png) [@shadowfax](https://community.cartalk.com/u/shadowfax)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/34 "2021-09-30T14:32:19Z")
> [@Scrapyard-John](#): > > Yes, but we weren’t replacing a national fleet’s fuel supply with a fuel supply that is already in use for other things back then. No, we were replacing a national fleet’s fuel supply (hay, oats, the occasional apple) with a fuel supply that for all practical purposes didn’t exist. The ICE car was the _reason_ we now have a large petroleum industry. > [@Scrapyard-John](#): > > I think we need to establish the fuel supply (grid) before we convert to EV’s. We don’t need to establish it 100%. Well good! Then we’ve already done that. We’ve had an electrical grid for over 100 years. Yeah, we’ll need to expand its capacity, but it’s not like the whole country is going to run out tomorrow and buy a new car, so there’s time for a ramp-up as demand increases. ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/35 "2021-09-30T18:37:24Z")
Like I said, if Ford’s projections are correct that by 2030 half of their new vehicle sales will be EV’s…and I’d assume if they are correct, then other auto manufacturers’ sales figures would be similar…can the grid handle that currently? I have no idea, but I’d guess no. Nine years isn’t a long time to upgrade the grid, so we’d better get started. Then take into account 20 something percent of the grid is coal fired and I’d assume we’ll want to eliminate that portion since it’s coal… ---
**Author:** ![Docnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Docnick](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Docnick)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/36 "2021-09-30T19:49:27Z")
A little while ago, two staffers on a Canadian journal planned to attend the Detroit auto show and show up for this event in an electric car. Their office was 60 miles East of Toronto and they knew the could not get to Detroit on a single charge. The trip became a bit of a logistical nightmare since they had to leave the day before, plan to get to their mid-way charging station on time, sleep the 8 hours and the finish the trip to Detroit. All in all, very amusing if it was not for the fact that many well-meaning shelled out $40,000 for such an inadequate vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Docnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Docnick](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Docnick)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/37 "2021-09-30T20:03:40Z")
Denmark has a residential rate of about $0.56 US per KWH as have many smaller countries with inefficient grids. We pay a typical fixed charge of $79 per month fixed cost plus C$ 0.10-0.12 cents per KWH for actual energy used. A typical monthly bill for our coal generated power is $177 including all taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Cavell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/cavell/32/43396_2.png) [@Cavell](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Cavell)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/38 "2021-09-30T20:47:25Z")
Tesla can disable supercharging. And probably any charging. Building a plant in China is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![jtsanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c2a13f/32.png) [@jtsanders](https://community.cartalk.com/u/jtsanders)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 9:19pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/39 "2021-09-30T21:19:43Z")
IMO, Tesla got the owner of the store and parking lot to install the chargers. Grocery stores usually don’t own the building or property they are on. I’m sure the owner worked with the grocery chain to locate the chargers in a mutually agreeable spot. ---
**Author:** ![Barkydog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/barkydog/32/2470_2.png) [@Barkydog](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Barkydog)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2021, 10:25pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678/40 "2021-09-30T22:25:19Z")
Privately owned I believe, Sure they have plenty of parking, the stations are fairly near the store, I do imagine it was mutually arranged. It was an expensive venture I am sure, tore up the existing curb, put in the stations with some big box control system, 750k for sure in my book. [Previous page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678.md?page=1) [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/the-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing-evs-vs-ices/179678.md?page=3)