sticking brakes

Maintenance/Repairs
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41

This is off topic but of course that uses more fuel in gear. Take your foot off the brake and the car drives forward at idle, that means the engine is doing work. Sitting in neutral it’s doing no work. On anything but old cars when you take it out of drive into neutral the RPMs will come up for a couple of 6 seconds and then settle back to 7:50.

I would think that somebody coming up from behind me at a traffic light should be more concerned about the color of the traffic light then whether I have brake lights on or not. You’re talking about daytime right? In the daytime the car isn’t invisible just because it’s the brake lights aren’t on. And of course at night the tail lights would be on.

What you say about using the handbrake helping not having to worry about it getting stuck was something I had in mind as a reason to make it okay to do that. But I’m beginning to think that something in that right rear is making the rear drums stick regardless of how it’s adjusted.

42

That, my friend, is an excellent question. The brakes will feel hard and require noticeably more effort to use. They will work, but expect them to need more effort.

The way the booster works is simple. It’s basically a canister with a diaphragm inside. The rod from the brake pedal goes through the center of the diaphragm and into the master cylinder to operate the brake pistons. Vacuum from the engine is applied to the canister around the diaphragm through a line on the side of the canister, equally on each side of the diaphragm. When the brake is pressed, the rod moves forward and internal valves change the configuration of the booster such that the vacuum is applied only to the front side of the diaphragm, assisting you in applying the brakes.

To test my theory, and it is only a theory, try pulling over the next time you feel the brakes closing up and clamping the line to the booster. If the brakes continue to close up, that’ll eliminate the booster as suspect. If they stop closing up, that’ll confirm it as a suspect.

The theory I posited is that the booster is malfunctioning and allowing constant vacuum on the booster’s diaphragm, slowly applying the brakes.

43

Driving backward and applying the parking brake was the wrong thing to do. That will adjust the pads too tightly as you found out. You only pull up on the parking brake handle when parked.

This backing up and hitting the regular brakes went out with the all drum brakes of yore.

I don’t know exactly what in the master cylinder could be causing your problem but it is the only thing that affects your left front and right rear at the same time. The booster affects all four wheels at the same time so I’d rule it out.

The master cylinder, the hard line from it to the proportioning valve and the proportioning valve itself are the only common links, and only the master cylinder has moving parts.

44

Here’s a pretty good answer I found via Google search:

Also as I noted initially:

Read the entire response, though, it’s a pretty good answer I think (in basically calling it a wash).

They should be, but I’ve followed very short people that can barely see over the steering wheel tailgating the heck out of the person in front of them for start/stop. I’m not a lawyer or member of law enforcement (nor have I played one on TV), but I still think I would be weary of liability doing that…you’re deliberately NOT using one of your safety systems. Also think about poor weather situations where visibility is decreased…do you want to put your car at risk simply to rest your leg? There are morons driving everywhere…

I’ve also followed cars that use DRLs that DON’T have light sensors on the dash to automatically turn the lights on at night, and who’s occupant’s didn’t realize that their lights weren’t on :rage: I almost ran into the back of one of these cars one night because it was a black car and the road was pitch black. I literally didn’t see that car until they hit their brakes at a red light…thank god my Solara had good brakes!!

45

I see that all the time.
Your comment about the car with no brake lights is why I’ve advocated (and practiced) for many years having your lights on whenever you’re driving regardless of conditions, and why I’ve believed for many years that much better than DRLs would be circuitry that would always have the headlights, taillights, and running light illuminated whenever the engine is on. There could easily be an automatically-resettable switch to enable the driver to turn the circuits off in an anomalous situation… although I can’t imagine one other than working on the engine, which wouldn’t be occurring in traffic anyway.

IMHO DRLs are, at absolute best, only a half solution.

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46

Completely agree with you, also with the practice of continuous headlight usage

47

Brake system split: have you determined for sure whether your dual system divides front-rear or diagonally? If not consider consulting a shop manual or asking a mechanic who you are confident knows the model. This could rule out or leave standing your front-rear commonality theory.

Checking for residual pressure at the affected wheels as suggested earlier also seems logical.

Flexible brakes hoses can fail with age so replacing as preventative maintenance is reasonable plus it would resolve whether they are the cause.

I once had a Dodge van with a caliper piston that developed a notch causing it to intermittently lock and drag resulting in a hot brake though no noticeable effect on steering - the piston was phenolic plastic and was replaced with a metal one. Oddly, a rear drum brake cylinder blew a seal the next day (it had a front-rear split so there was little in common).

Whatever else you do, take it out of service until it’s fixed. Best wishes.

48

And a failed flex line is not always visible.
These lines are basically sheathed runner tubes, and the inner lining can and occasionally does separate from the sheathing, plugging the line. Once the lining separates, it can bunch up and move however it wants, not necessarily controlled by the sheathing. The line can look good from the outside and be buggered up on the inside.

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i have it in the shop. they checked it out and said it needs a master cylinder.

I’m having serious doubts now even though my thinking had been headed that way. The thing you mentioned about how the dual master works, and whether I made a bad assumption thinking they are cross linked has me trying to find out for sure how that master on that car is linked. I found a diagram that was for a different car that showed the fronts being driven separately from the rears. I just thought I’d read somewhere about cross linking and it made more sense than front rear. I wouldn’t want to rupture a front brake line, lose both fronts and have just the rears to get me stopped if it was a must stop situation. That may have prejudiced my thinking.

When I asked how he concluded master cylinder he simply said process of elimination because everything else checks out. I don’t even have to replace anything on the left front even though I’ve seen that disk glow bright red 2 different times. He says the pistons release, the disk is true and the pads look like normal 2 year old pads which is what they are. I’m making the assumption since I KNOW they do a lot of brake work that they wouldn’t skip the flex hoses. Checking those hoses I something I assume they did and I shouldn’t have to ask, but now I DO have to ask. It is the FIRST thing i suspected when I started having the trouble, then the rear brake complicated the matter. I found myself trying to think of something that would explain maintaining high pressure in the brake lines across the system. And I’m trying to imagine how a problem with the master could even explain it.

But I have a suspicious mind. I know the trick of salesmanship/con artistry that uses someone’s own conclusion and just reinforces it. People like to think they are right so I’m wondering if he’s allowing me to think the master cylinder is cross linked because he can make more money replacing the master than he can a flex hose or two and the actual fix is something simple. I know he’s marking way up the price of the master because I can’t run out and buy one because, wouldn’t you know it, nobody in this city stocks the abs version of the master. So I’m looking at at least $240+ for the job.and the master cylinder is ALL he’s doing. The rear heating could be a separate problem related to the hand brake even though my normal way of looking at car problems is against side of co-incidence.

I’ve looked at at least dozen Youtube vids today about dragging brakes and various causes. Not ONE of them mentions the master cyclinder. I was down that rabbit whole because of the opposite rear.

Now, to be clear, the parking brake acts by cable on the rear brakes alone right? Nobody when to using fronts and rears with the hand brake right?

I’m retired and now well retired. I’m not driving a 15 year old car because I prefer it to something newer. I have to watch every dollar. Actually, I’m used to making old stuff last. It bothers me that I’m losing the battle to rear fender-well rust because I keep the rest of it up including twice a hear polishing. My motorcycle is an 82 Honda Magna V-45 that is restored and it still loves to be flogged like the Thoroughbred that it is. I’m tempted to brag on it by posting a photo.

My dad was a farm-boy turned Navy carrier pilot and growing up each summer I spent 2 weeks each on the small family farms of my grandfather and 2 uncles. That’s where I learned about how machines work. A Wisconsin air cooled grain elevator motor has a problem they dug in and figured it out. actually that Wisconsin is the first engine I helped rebuild. Just me and my same age cousin who turned into the best mechanic I’ve ever know. I’m not used to having a problem that I can’t figure out. Maybe I should call my cuz up.

To add another layer of complexity the this mess, on another forum I saw a question asked by a Peugeot owner who had found small ball bearings on the floor in the front of his car and he was asking what they might be even positing that he might have picked them up in the groves of his work shoes. 13 hour after posting the question nobody had a clue.

When I saw the post i remember that right about the time I started having this trouble I found about a half dozen or more little ball bearing on the floor of my car. Could they be part of the parking brake?

50

Google 2001 Chevy Prism brake line routing and it shows two separate lines traveling together until they reach the back axle before going to each wheel. If your system was not a dual diagonal one there would be one line going to a junction block over the axle.

A lot of cars these days use ball bearing for the wheels instead of tapered roller bearings. You should have your wheel bearings checked out.

51

To clarify, one line to the rear would rule out a diagonal system but two lines to the rear don’t necessarily imply diagonal as this also would be consistent with an ABS system that addressed the rear wheels independently.

52

It sounds like you’re making progress. ~$240 seems reasonable for a master cylinder, especially if it includes the part. Your mechanic also should be able to evaluate the parking brake. Of course, stay on top of brake fluid flushes and use the proper type.

53

A Chevy Prizm is the same car as a Corolla, right? Just different badging. I’ve replaced the brake master cylinder on my Corolla a couple of times over the years. The part is inexpensive and it’s not a big job at all. If that’s what the shop says needs doing, my suggestion is to go along with that idea. Have them replace the brake fluid at the same time. It may be one of the tiny holes in the master cylinder or elsewhere got plugged up w/gunk. Replacing with fresh fluid along with a new MC should fix that problem. If the sticking brake problem remains no harm done, you have a new MC and fresh brake fluid that will last a few years in any event. Next step would be to replace the flexible lines affecting that part of the system.

Other things that can cause brakes to stick: Power brake booster, caliper pistons (front disc), wheel cylinder piston (rear drum), calipers not sliding easily, parking brake sticking on, brake pedal ass’y faulty. But I’m guessing just replacing the MC and fresh fluid will do the trick.

54

I believe for a time there was a California assembly plant . . . NUMMI, perhaps . . . which was producing Prizms and Corollas side-by-side

Not only that, but I believe Tesla bought the old plant

To be a sourpuss, the things that worked well in the NUMMI plant, GM was not able to implement in other plants. I believe upper level management was extremely resistant to “shake things up”

55

Correct. My early 90’s Corolla in fact was built at that plant near San Jose, Calif. And Tesla’s are indeed being built there now. In the late 90’s as I recall GM and Toyota abandoned their joint partnership and Toyota moved Corolla production elsewhere, Texas I think.

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56

I have a similar issue with my 2000 Hyundai Elntra. What was your diagnosis of the original brake sticking/dragging issue? Did you get it fixed?

57

Does that mean your Corolla was essentially born in the San Jose area, and has lived there its entire life?

I’m asking, because I don’t know where you’ve lived, and when

58

Yes, I purchased my Corolla after my move from Colorado to California. It’s a California car born and bred.

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59

I’ll find out tomorrow if it takes care of the problem. the mastercyclinder had to be ordered (abs version) and shipped ups and it didn’t arrive in time for theme to do it today as they said they would. I should get the car back tomorrow and I’ll let everyone know the result. The service manager seems confident.

Now, If I find they have replaced the left front flex hose without telling me all hell could break loose. I have a theory that that an increasingly plugged flex hose could act like a check valve and not let the fluid flow back from the piston, and for that to slowly raise the pressure in the line until it passes the pressure through the master-cylinder raising it on the right rear as well.

That of course would be a cheap fix not the 280 plus stuff this is going to cost. I’m fixed income and it hurts, but it’s an old car.

Next I need to replace the serpentine belt. I think if I try that myself it means jack stands and removing the splash pan to do part of the feed from underneath. and it’s cold out there, At age 67 it’s getting harder to work under a car.

60

It’s in Fremont. Going up the east bay side it’s San Jose, Milpitas, then Freemont then Hayward, San Leandro and Oakland. It’s just all one long city. It’s an even longer list of Cities running from San Jose up the other side of the bay ending with The City. (aka San Francisco to non locals. If you live in the bay area and say "hey, let’s to to The City or so and so is playing in the City everyone knows the shortand). I was living in Sunnyvale when they opened it. (or actually reopened it) They started making Corollas there in 86 and the last Corolla rolled of the line in 2010. I think all the Corollas in the US market were made there and for a time some were exported. The Prizm and the Corolla were the same car from 98, thought 02. Making one or the other was simply a matter of badging. I think the Geo Prizm which predated the Chevy Prizm was the same as the same year Corolla too.

The interesting part is that the old plant when they are making GM A-body cars in the Fremont plant it had become the worst automotive workforce in the country. I mean they were turning out crap, which is why GM closed the plant.

When they reopened in the joint venture (NUMMI, New United Motor Manufacturing, Inc.) with the influence of the Toyota way of doing things they were making the 84 Chevy Nova. 85 percent of the old GM workforce was hired back to work there yet by the end of the year they were making as many cars per man hour with less defects per 100 cars than any of the Japanese plants. This may sound crazy but it’s true. I haven’t put a drop of coolant in it the whole 8 years I’ve owned my. After check many time I realized as long as their is coolent in the recovery bottle the radiator was full. I haven’t taken the cap off in a year or more. The damn thing has been bullet proof, knock on wood. The previous owner had put tires on it bigger than the stock tires, so I’ve replace them with the same over size and it brakes and corners better than the stock tire. The only time I’ve ever felt a fender rub was having something heavy in the trunk over a big bump.

The story is well told in a movie called Gung Ho. In the end, when they had come back from the brink of disaster because the Americans not getting along with the Japanese and they finally meet their production and quality quotas through both sides busting there asses, they decide to through a big party.

I’ll paraphrase the ending of what is actually a pretty good movie.

American union foreman; “yea, let’s drink a lot of beer and pxxx for distance!!!”.

Japanese production manager; “yes, let’s all drink many beers but we’ll pxxx for accuracy!!!”.

Much backslapping, music comes up, roll credits. Micheal Keaton plays the union guy.

I know much of what happened there to be based in reality because I met some people that worked there at the time. I sold cars in San Jose and Sunnyvale for from the end of 80 until October of 88. A Pontiac/Honda dealer, then a Toyota only dealer, ending with Pontiac/Daihatsu… lol but don’t laugh to hard because even though Daihatsu never caught on here because they were too plain but I remember noticing they had the most perfect fit and finish I’d ever seen and the mechanics that prepped them said they never had a single thing to do on them when checking them out. I don’t think I ever saw one come back for a warranted repair. Solid as a rock, bullet proof and dull.

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