Yes, We should loan Detroit the money they need. The union should take the pay cut requested. If they don’t they may all be out of work and I fear that would trigger a depression.
I don’t think we should primarily because the Big Three want the money outright without any concessions. When asked regarding reducing the salary of the workers, the UAW said NO. A UAW worker is making an average of $50 per hour. That’s more than three times what a worker receives at the Camry plant in KY. The last time I owned a Ford was a 1963 Thunderbird. I swore that was the last Ford I’d ever own and I’ve stuck with it. I think it’s about time the Big Three CEO’s got the boot and the compainies restructured. Ford has been taking advantage of the buyers for years–especially with their warranties. I’m all for them “sinking”. And, the UAW workers have been making TOO much money for years. Let them find other jobs further South in the Foreign auto plants.
Nope, from the ashes most are burned but the gifted will rise from the ashes
and build a better car company
Let the market decide. It’ll be painful either way, but at least letting the market decide will result in a correction of the core problems. Artificial intervention will not.
Bailing out the GMs of the world is not the purpose of taxation. Let us not allow the feds to distort this any more than they already have.
ABSOLUTELY, and it is NOT a bail out they’re seeking. It is a “bridge loan.” UNlike the Wall Street abusers, it will be paid back. UNlike the Wall Street abusers, it goes to keeping the middle class (manufacturing, a vital part of national security) base alive. I do think oversight and management standards should be imposed, but to be so critical of the BLUE COLLAR needs after giving Wall Street abusers $700B with virtually NO control is hypocrisy beyond belief. Where was all this “concern” over high salaries and efficient management when they were talking to Wall Street? They even left one of the BIGGEST Wall Street abusers soley in charge of doling out the BAIL OUT money to his Wall Street cronies. This “controversy” is nothing more than a poorly diguised right wing effort to kill unions, which they are too short-sighted (and greedy, in my opinion) to realize is what creates a middle class and public prosperity in general. They wouldn’t be using the lies they promote if it were anything else.
I couldn’t say it better than the post by “the same mountainbike” on 111308.
I would like to add that by not bailing them out the economy will plunge as a result of lost jobs… but it has to occur sometime, so let it be now.
Spectrum, while I disagree with you on the bailout (it is NOT a bridge loan, there is no guarantee that it will ever be repaid, and, in fact, the Big 3 will probably be back with their hands out in a couple of months if we make this mistake now) I do agree with you on the Wall Street bailout. It was absolutely wrong. Yes, the government didn’t regulate Wall Street. So why should we hand them money when everything goes sour? We have seen how they reacted. Had we just allowed the market to regulate itself, Wall Street would have crashed, all the money people would have been out of a job, and the market would have corrected itself. Yes, I would have been hurt, along with many others (my retirement is in stocks and bonds), but I have not staked my entire existence on the “get rich quick” scheme of playin ghte stock market.
Here in West Virginia, the Teachers were offered the opportunity to transfer their retirement from defined contributions (stocks) to defined benefits (fixed retirement). Most voted no, because they were going to get so rich in the stock market. Last week they came to the government pleading for another vote so they could get their money out of the stock market.
They, and the rest of America, could have just as well gone to Vegas and gambled their money. It’s all gambling.
maybe some help! but with many restrictions, such as suv’s front wheel drive only along with much better economy! also pick up trucks with front wheel drive only, 4 wheel drive an option, thus eliminating use a huge quantity of salt in the bed which is very dangerous to driver in case of accident. no more megabuck salaries and pensions for the upper management, lets not forget the workers who do the actual work and make these parasites to the company so rich! also the union either has to go or quit being a total parasite to any company, granted they were needed at one time, but enough is enough!!
What about this: Instead of giving money to GM, Ford or Chrysler, Uncle Sam gives every taxpaying American (within defined parameters) a voucher for a car made by the American car makers. You could only use the voucher to get a GM, Ford or Chrysler.
The way I see it, the money we gave Wall Street and the Banks has so far done little good for the American people. We still have folks defaulting on their home loans and credit cards. We, the tax payers, have to foot this bill but we still don’t have anything to show for it.
We should have been issued vouchers to pay our bills and the money would have gone straight back to Wall Street. Give me a voucher to pay off my home loan and the bank gets their money and now I own my house. Now I can afford to buy things and the retailers get money this Christmas.
What are we thinking when we just fork over money like that. It reminds me of the scam artists who call up your Grandmother and bilk her out of her retirement money.
The union is a parasite? Do you think the company would give you health benefits and a decent wage if the union didn’t represent you? Think WalMart.
The legacy costs carried by the Detroit 3, the premature obsolescence of their vehicles, (GMC truck 4 yrs-88k mile & died; Camry is 13 yrs old with 115k and still strong), plus the inflated wages paid to UAW labor have combined to make the Detroit 3 non-competitive. Management has taken a huge hit already with the 80% decline in stock prices. When Ron Gettelfinger refused to talk with US Senators about negotiating the loan package (sent a representative instead) he essentially snubbed the American taxpayer. That’s typical union brinksmanship. I do NOT want my taxes used to support overpaid, unionized workers. They need to bring Detroit salaries in line with those at the other highly competitive auto plants in the US. The only way to bring that about in time to avoid total collapse of the industry is through a structured bankruptcy process. It can work. Dana has been in bankruptcy for 15+ months now and they still supply parts (some of the best auto/truck parts) to the the Detroit 3 and other car makers. Since the union wants to wait until 2011 to make any wage concessions, it’s clear they have little interest in the survival of the Detroit 3! I’ve made significant concessions to keep working in this miserable economy and so can the UAW! It’s not union-busting. It’s a clear view of reality!
To what job are you referring?
From where I sit there are other private competing companies who are doing the job just fine.
Number one this is a loan. We are talking about 4 million jobs plus if they go under every waranty is null and void and thousands of cars already made and already sold will be useless. the economic shock to this country will be unimaginable. The lies about auto workers salaries have been pushed by southern republicans with asian and european auto factories in their states which have recieved huge subsidies from these states and the governments of their parent countries. Health insurance, the bigest non material expence for the auto makers in this country is subsidiesd by other countries. We have given more money to the financial institutions with no strings attached and no gurantees.
These plants and some of the retires that the republican senators want to loose part of their pensions produced the very weapons during WW2 that defeated the Japanese and the germans. So our gratitude is to dump them.
In october at a trade fair in Worceter MA I saw a GM hydrogen car . Lets give them the chance to get this on the road and the govt. push for the creation oof hydrogen facilities at existing stations to make this feasable.
The big three do make some great cars, and according to JD power & associates as good as and in some cases better than the foriegn makes.
These senators want to break all unions, it"s payback for a lost election and a distain for the working class, especially blue collar workers.
First, No Bailout for Detroit! As pointed out earlier, the Big3 can well reorganize under bankruptcy laws, but with a real incentive to reorganize and radically improve. Otherwise, it’s the SOS.
Second, this counts as a major opportunity to solve energy shortages re oil and gasoline; letting the foreign manufacturers set the example for efficiency, economy and reliability by allowing them more scope to gain in the marketplace, despite the opposition generated by the Big3 and union lobbyists.
I submit that a major reorganization of the transportation industry at large is urgently required, and is not an option to be dithered away in make-do’s and compromise. The federal gasoline tax should be doubled, at least, and held for the sole purpose of restoring the highway infrastructure, free from earmarks or raids to benefit the general fund, as happens in so many states.
Employment will be upheld (theoretical, but possible) by conversion of manufacturing plants and labor into more sustainable efforts into low cost pre-fab housing, potentially efficient energy products, and sustained research and education into innovative technologies.
I understand that much thought has already been granted to these subjects, what I emphasize is that the present paradigm is inadequate to future needs, and a major shift of perception is urgently required; the present pain and dislocation cannot be corrected soon, nor will it yield to 20th-century atrophied considerations.
What’s the big deal? We’ll pay now…or later. Unless you are wealthy,eg, very wealthy…you’ll never feel it. Thanks.
We’ll pay now…or later.
My point exactly. Chrysler and GM will probably go belly-up whether or not we loan them the money, the only difference being the American tax payer will be left holding the bag after they default on their loans.
There is plenty of credit out there for those who are likely to pay it back, but the banks have determined these companies are not worthy of the risk. Who are we to question that wisdom and loan them money anyway?
That is the whole problem with the bail out is that the government is going to tell them what to do and how to do it. That is why we should not bail them out, if you run a business you either run it in the ground or you make it. There should be no “green cars” if the company does not want to sell them due to the high cost of American made products and the low interest in buying them. It is like food, everybody complains about fast food being unhealthy (and I agree) but when they try to sell salads how many people really buy them.
let’s allow businesses to make it or break it and use our tax dollars a lot wiser.
“These senators want to break all unions, it"s payback for a lost election and a disdain for the working class, especially blue collar workers.”
I suspect it’s more local than that. Many of the Senators who voted against the loans are from states that have traditionally foreign manufacturers, like Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes Benz operating factories in their states. What better way to ensure success for their new found friends than to deny the Beg 3 the loans they seek?
We made up a name for a car, The Dodge Elmo. It’s better than that BMW 750il. It looks like the 75 Oil. We can do better by pulling letters and numbers out of a hat.
I’m still trying to figure out what goes in the “710” cap on the engine… 
American buyers bought big cars because they wanted big cars.
Chicken and the egg… did Detroit push big iron because customers demanded it, or did Detroit create such a market because profits would be higher there? A little of both? It’s true that we’re a much larger country than any place in Europe, making big cars an easier sell, and Americans have always been grandiose in their vision and tastes (for better or worse). However, many people could do quite well with small cars, and I get the feeling that Detroit has long tried to get such people into larger cars.
we need a strong domestic automobile industry. Over time, the U.S. carmakers have gone from making transportation machinery to making living room motorized furniture
Just to take this branch of the discussion a little further, would a strong domestic automotive industry be a strategic necessity? During WWII, our auto plants stopped building cars and started building all manner of war materiel, from jeeps to bombers and everything in between. If our automakers went under, were not taken over, and (more of) our manufacturing base went overseas, would we be able to survive another major war? We can all hope that calamities such as WWII are safely past history, but should we be trying to preserve domestic manufacturing capability “just in case”? If Chinese submarine wolf packs were ravaging the Pacific, how would Japanese and Korean cars make it to our shores? Fly them? Awfully expensive! Let’s not even think about all the stuff that we depend on China for, if we were at war with them for some reason. The shelves of Wal-mart would be empty.