now thats a REAL life senerio,very well said.
most people do not understand FLAT RATE.and never will,its a shame but it is what it is.
they think we have all day to straighten out their issue(NOT OUR ISSUE).
WE DIDNT BUILD OR DESIGN THE MESS. the engineer DID,and got a BIG bonus for doing so.we just have to figure out WHATS IN FRONT OF US ,AT SAID TIME.
we are not baby sitters.BY ANY MEANS .
GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR PURCHASE.
cheerio.
Thank you for your response. No, I did not agree to their request to use a breaker bar. As near as I can recall, I never have been asked by a mechanic (dealer-based mechanic or independent mechanic) for permission (looks like a request, but really isn’t) to use a tool for a repair on any car I have owned and had serviced over the years.
Before telling the service advisor to re-assemble the engine, I requested he speak with the mechanics and see if they had any experience in dealing with this problem.
He came back and notified me they had no other way of handling this repair. He had them re-assemble the engine; he notified me the 3 plugs in the front facing head had already been replaced first. I thanked him and paid the diagnostic charge to which I had agreed when I requested service.
Thanks again
Over Torgued, Torgued Husband
Thank you for your response. As a matter of fact, that is exactly what occurred. I requested he (the dealership service advisor) to button it back up and I would handle it from there.
You see there was no attempt on the dealer’s representative to suggest options mb(remember they are the experts on a proprietary designed, sold and maintained car). Remember this car has been serviced only by Saturn Dealers, and it was purchased by my wife and myself at this particular dealer.
I wonder why I am Over Torgued.
My 2002 Sienna has 149,000 miles on it. We have driven a lot around the US and Mexico. I have taken the car to local dealers for routine maintenance. Twice I specifically requested the plugs be replaced, starting at around (I forget exactly) 60, 000 miles, exactly because of concern about those plugs freezing in place.
When I picked up the car, both times they told me they did not replace the plugs, because they didn’t need it until 120,000 miles.
Finally, at around 110,000 miles, I told them I was going on an extended trip and wanted it done while I was nearby. They did it, and there was no repair charge for damaged heads or helicoils.
Willey is correct as uaual.
One thing that could cause a disconnect in this area is this. When it comes to working with a dealer the service writer is usually the person the customer deals with. Service writers, at least the vast majority of them, are not mechanics and never have been.
Their mechanical knowledge and aptitude is very limited and many know nothing more than what is in the owners manual or on a service chart taped to the wall.
If that manual/chart states 120k miles then they believe it to be so.
Some younger inexperienced mechanics may believe the same thing.
Odds are that most plugs will come out at 100k miles plug without destroying the threads but there’s going to be a certain percentage of them that are not going to budge. One or two overheating episodes in that 100k miles span can also affect whether those plugs come out without a fight or not.
Would you be willing to suggest an alternative that would have GM, Dealer and me the customer that has in good faith had the car serviced 95% of the time at this dealer? I am listening.
Over Torqued
Thank you for your response. I assure you, I don’t have any solution except what has worked for me in the past. I have some experience around automobiles having restored several vintage cars in the past. However, this is a “different car company.” Remember the T/V ads when Saturn was first born, where a person delivered a new car seat to a customer in Alaska, having had to get there by pontooned airplane? What happened since then? Hmmmmmmmm
Thank you for your response. Except for two other occasions (both which were at other Saturn dealers because the problem to be solved occurred at locations other than the location at which the car was purchased) this car has been serviced at the same dealer for its entire life. I assure you there was never any recommendation msde to replace, inspect, or change the plugs before 100,000 miles. Given this information do you have any other suggestions?
Respectfully,
Over Torgued
Thanks for your wisdom. My experience with this car, in regard to service, is they didn’t overlook much when I took it in for regular maintenance. And I never experienced overheating on this vehicle.
They advised me on several items that required repair, such as a leaking water-pump, leaking power steering pump, and leaking A/C compressor. These all got attention immediately; I have kept a full written record of all service.
I would recommend you be the shop service instructor for Saturn; however, I didn’t see any posting for this position on their web-site.
Sincerely,
Over Torqued
Actually, this kind of problem is present on just about every kind of machine out there and is also applicable to things other than spark plugs.
You see the same thing with water pump or thermostat housing bolts, exhaust header bolts, etc. and this is true of everything from lawn mowers to semi-trucks and aircraft.
Aluminum does not rust but it corrodes and when steel is meshed with it sometimes the 2 materials will practically weld themselves together.
Thank you for the kind words but I doubt that I would remain a service instructor for very long as I have somewhat of an aversion to toeing the company line.
The websites for any car maker will not point out any potential problem like this; it’s bad PR.
On this board I often carp about factory maintenance schedules being woefully inaccurate or incomplete and the reason for this is that the car makers try to make it appear their cars need little maintenance.
They know that by the time a problem surfaces due to omissions or extended intervals the car will likely be out of warranty and then it’s tough luck as far as they’re concerned.
It’s not just Saturn; it’s all of them. Hope some of that helps anyway and as I said; don’t put much faith into service writer talk.
First I agree it is the problem for the car owner, not the mechanic. Second I agree that 100,000 mile plug changes are too much, I would do them at 50,000 if it were my car, but my car has no spark plugs.
In this case I would leave it in there another 20 - 50,000 miles and then have the plugs changed again. I have had a couple of friends who gave up and left it in only to find it came out just fine at the next plug change.
i think the OP has asked a question that has NOT been answered.
the question was, “what is the optimum solution?”
I feel the answer is; take it to anindependent mechanic. a dealer will NEVER do a repair unless it will be exactly the same as it was when it left the factory. (new parts, new , new, new, $ $ $.)
to overtorqued: the solution is to simply remove (by what ever means necessary) and then repair via helicoil or sert the threads (if need be) and install new plugs.
these things are done every day at regular mechanics. dealerships will NOT do this, since the engine never would have helicoils from the factory. but in the otdinary world this type of repair is accepted, and regular.
delearship mechanics will never do anything to save you money, they will only repair to original specs regardless of cost. the more they repair, the more the dealership makes. note: this is NOT directed a the mechanics (techs) themselves, but the “service writer, most profit for the dealer” mentality which is at EACH and every ‘stealership’.
as one response said, this may be a whole lot about nothing. it may come out just fine.
I have to respectfully disagree with your analysis about dealership mechanics as I’ve worked for 4 dealerships over the years.
In the situation where it is recommended that a cylinder head be replaced because of a simple stripped out spark plug hole of course that is ridiculous and I’ve never seen or known a mechanic to recommend or do this. It’s always possible that this could be done in some cases if an inexperienced tech is involved but it’s not the norm.
Installing Heli-Coils has been done countless times not only by myself but most of the techs I know. Replacing a cylinder head because of this problem would not even have crossed our minds.
You’re also incorrect about dealer mechanics not doing anything to save the customer money and what’s wrong with making sure a repair is done right by bringing the vehicle up to specs?
There’s a correct way of performing a repair and a backyard method. For instance, it’s often stated that brake pads can be replaced without servicing the rotors.
True, they can. Is it a proper repair? No.
If it’s done by the backyard method and a problem occurs (which is common) the customer will then be upset and point the finger at the tech and dealer.
This applies to every area of repair on any car made.
As to the service writer deciding what the repair will be and how much it will cost, I don’t understand that at all. Techs diagnose the problem, work up the estimate, and turn it over to the service writer for discussion with the car owner.
At this point, problems can and often do occur due to misinterpretation, but I would not lump all dealera and all dealer techs together in the scenario you describe.
As to independents against dealers, there’s something that is seldom mentioned. Often an independent shop will botch a job due to incompetence, lack of special tools, etc. and THEN the car winds up at the dealer with the customer upset over the cost.
Example that just hit me. A guy takes a Subaru into an independent shop for a “tune-up”. When done, the car runs like crap and the ind. shop “has no idea what the problem is” so the car is towed to us. (the dealer)
First thing I do is attempt (key word there) to remove the plugs. The 2 right side plugs came out but were of different brands and both were used plugs.???
The left side plugs would not budge, no way no how. Bottom line is that after breaking the end off of a Craftsman 1/2" breakover and failing to remove the plugs with not one, but THREE, air wrenches (my CP 734, Ingersoll, and a buddy’s CP) I had to use a 3/4" drive breakover with a cheater bar to get them out.
BOTH of those plugs were also different brand and I have never in my life seen anything cross-threaded as badly as those were.
We discovered later this shop kept a barrel of used plugs around and when a car came in for a “tune-up” they would connect an oscilloscope, look at the firing lines, and replace plugs that showed an abnormally high pattern. They would simply pull 4 plugs out of the barrel and throw them in no matter the brand or shank length.
Pathetic. I had to Heli-Coil both of the left side plug holes and I spent almost 4 hours of time replacing the spark plugs. I would hardly consider this gouging the customer or performing a “make work” job.
I don’t think the problem was/is how to fix the situation the question is who pays,the OP does not want to pay anything,he feels that because he did nothing wrong he has a “big brother” looking over him.The warranty period is limited,what part of “your warranty has expired” do you not understand?
You are overlooking the possibility of the plug completly breaking off,then who pays? Is the senario of the plug breaking off likely? probably not,but we must have a plan and agreement in place for the worst case senario
i understand your background, and professional attitude. (and i respect your opinion) as i said in my other response; most dealership service writers response is, new head, no helicoil.
i have been searching for the post from about six months ago to no avail. the guy had a VW and had the same problems, and the dealership would only replace the head. i believe all here responded with the helicoil or sert as an alternative to replacing the head. but the dealer in that case was adamant to ONLY replace the head. sounds familiar doesn’t it?
maybe you work at a different dealer, but most i have been to aren’t trustworthy.
again, this is not directed at the mechanics, but the dealership method of upselling, unneeded, unwarranted extravagant parts replacement when a simple repair would do.
i would say that the OP has exactly asked for some idea of what to do. reading his responses, is indicative that he does not know what to do, and has no experience with this sort of repair or what is involved. the dealer has said the solution if the spark plug strips is: head replacement. unless (as often happens) the whole story isn’t being told, that is untrue. there are two other options, tapping, or helicoil. maybe the last option (replacing the head) would be necessary if all else fails, but that should be discussed.
those options were apparantly not discussed. this sounds so much like the VW guys problem i am wondering if others recall?!
I can only say that I’ve worked for 4 dealers over the years (2 small ones, 2 large multi-line) and none of them attempted the oversell or would consider telling someone they needed a new cylinder head when a Heli-Coil will work fine.
It’s also possible that the dealer the OP visited could be reputable and due to luck of the draw, happened to get a relatively inexperienced tech in the shop who honestly thinks the repair requires a new cylinder head; which it does not.
Maybe if another tech, or more experienced one, had been given the job a Heli-Coil would have been recommended.
It’s possible that 90% of the techs in the shop may have said repair the threads and the other 10% say replace the head.
And I agree that replacing the head is unnecessary except in a very limited circumstance. (Say a head on a high mileage engine that is badly damaged, access is near impossible, etc. and removal of the head shows other problems such as excessive warpage or valves/seats in very bad condition. This is not likely on an '02 car with only 96k miles though)
carolblanchard hasn’t posted in a while, this thread has been debating the issue for almost a month, I wonder if she ever got the plug out or is simply driving the car the way it is?? Hey Carol, How Is It Going??
Hope you read through all the other posts to get this good advice. You are right, they should be liable and unless things have changed, Texas has an excellent lemon law process. Consult your local DA.
Another idea is threatening the dealership with litigation and contact with the Factory Rep, his boss, etc. Demand to talk face to face with the factory Rep at your conveneience not his. If the factory Rep has to come to the dealership unscheduled there will be hell to pay! If you also threaten them with having the car towed to a shop of your choice, a shop which would likely allow chemical anti-oxidents to dissolve the build up - all at the dealership’s expense, they will probably come up with less expensive solutions. There is not a judge in this world who would decide against you if it gets to that point. There are chemicals the past dealership mechanics should have used, like anti-seize paste which is used exactly for things like steel threads in aluminum heads, or other parts that are prone to seizing. And trust me, after more then 25 years of working on cars and restoring cars there is no such carbon builup which can resist a good healthy spraying of an anti builup chmeical - liquid wrench, WD-40, etc. It just takes time and patients for the chemicals to penitrate. I’ve had years of build up on exhaust parts come loose after spraying and having patients.
Another word of advice, never, ever trust dealerships to work on a car that is out of it’s warranty coverage. Like politics and the public eduction system, drugs and worldly possesions have made the people involved greedy and they would screw their own mothers for the sake of a buck and then take none of the blame for failing ideas and notions…especially dealership Service Advisors/Consultants. Oh, the horror stories I could tell you from my inside experience.
I have to agree with you about service departments at dealerships. I have had dealer service departments go out of their way to help me out. One time I was returning home for vacation from graduate school when my ancient Pontiac started malfunctioning. It was late at night when I pulled into a motel. The proprietor gave me the room at a bargain rate because he said the television wasn’t working. I think the charge for the room was $4.00. I got a good night’s sleep and the next morning decided that the only thing I could do in a strange town was go to the Pontiac dealer. I explained my problem to the service manager and he put a technician on the car. The tech worked for over an hour. When I got the bill, it was only $5 (this was back in 1963). I told the cashier that there must be a mistake–$5 was way too cheap. The service manager came over and said “We did the best we could. The car should get you the next 250 miles, but it isn’t right. I can’t charge full price for a car that leaves my shop that isn’t right”. The car got me home and I did get the proper repaors made.
My most frightening experience I had at a service department was at a small town dealer where I bought a new 2000 Ford Windstar. The Windstar developed a problem that it would stall when I took my foot off the accelerator. I called the dealer and was told to bring it in. The would either fix it within an hour or send me back with a loaner if they didn’t have the part. When I got to the dealer and was waiting for the diagnosis, a young high school girl went up to the people behind the counter and asked if any of them knew any geometry. When nobody seemed to be able to help her, I volunteered. Now I have a master’s degree in mathematics, but her book was written so poorly that it was almost unreadable. I spent an hour figuring out what the problems were all about and helping her with a couple of them. When I returned the loaner to pick up my Windstar, I asked the service manager who the girl was that had been in the day before. She was the daughter of one of the owners. He asked if I would like to talk with him. I talked with the owner for about half an hour. It turned out that the geometry teacher couldn’t do the problems, so the students were basically on their own to figure it out for themselves. This really frightened me–I have been a mathematics teacher and am now teaching computer science. I don’t want to be judged on the basis of the incompetence of a few teachers, and at the same time, I don’t want to judge all dealer service department technicians because of a minority that are not competent. I’ve spent many hours of my own time in the evening trying to find a bug in a student’s program and I can imagine what it is like to run down a difficult problem in a vehicle.