# Red-light-runners on Youtube **URL:** \ **Category:** Safety\ **Created:** [March 4, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738 "2017-03-04T01:17:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![shadowfax](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/shadowfax/32/13026_2.png) [@shadowfax](https://community.cartalk.com/u/shadowfax)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/41 "2017-03-16T17:36:44Z")
> [@RandomTroll](#): > > it starts with an argument’s premise and shows that it leads to an impossible conclusion. Not an impossible conclusion - a merely ridiculous one is sufficient. > [@RandomTroll](#): > > a strawman could be an exaggeration, which your argument was. I didn’t exaggerate anything that you said. You said if the cameras prevent deaths, then the cost of 10,000 people getting BS tickets was OK because it promoted the general welfare. I simply showed you that “promoting the general welfare” at the cost of screwing innocent people was not on its face a legitimate argument for a program by showing you other programs which promote the general welfare at a higher cost. > [@RandomTroll](#): > > What about parking tickets? What about them? If you think it’s a BS ticket, fight it and get the parking enforcement officer on the stand. Any jurisdiction that doesn’t allow you to do this classifies a parking ticket as something lower than a misdemeanor and therefore it’s not germane to a discussion on red light running (although I am unaware of any jurisdiction which does not allow you any avenue through which to fight a parking ticket). > [@RandomTroll](#): > > you can continue to drive all you want, but your car needs some adult supervision Charging property with a crime and then expecting the property owner to pay for it without recourse is a problem. That’s the kind of thinking that led to civil forfeiture laws. Problems specific to red light running have already been mentioned in this thread. Cities will shorten the length of the yellow, sometimes making it _impossible_ to stop in time if you’re driving the speed limit. If the nose of your car is a foot over the stop line, that counts as running the red, even though no real cop would ever cite you for it. If you move your car through the intersection to clear the way for an ambulance… Well, you just ran the red, pay up. Cameras are profit-driven revenue generation. Profit motive is anathema to justice. Any time there’s a profit motive involved in the justice system, whether it’s red light cameras or private prisons, you know someone is incentivized by money to make sure there are lots of guilty people whether they’re guilty or not. ---
**Author:** ![RandomTroll](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/randomtroll/32/12184_2.png) [@RandomTroll](https://community.cartalk.com/u/RandomTroll)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/42 "2017-03-16T19:24:11Z")
> [@bing](#): > > Random, is this a class project or something for poli sci or philosophy? Is this really of interest or are you just being contrary to stir the discussion? Kids . . . I wanted people to think about fuel taxes. One group of Americans both resents Federal taxes and benefits from them. If we eliminate the Federal fuel tax the states that want good roads will get to pay for them themselves without having to subsidize the states that don’t want to pay for good roads. > [@shadowfax](#): > > I didn’t exaggerate anything that you said. Yes you did. I proposed fines on cars that run red lights. You countered with imprisoning people because of their ethnicity. Substituting imprisonment for fine, ethnicity for running a red light are both exaggrations. > [@shadowfax](#): > > What about them [parking tickets]? If you think it’s a BS ticket, fight it and get the parking enforcement officer on the stand. The officer doesn’t know who parked the car anymore than who was driving it when it ran a red light. > [@shadowfax](#): > > Charging property with a crime and then expecting the property owner to pay for it without recourse I wasn’t talking about a crime, but a violation. There’s as much recourse as there is for a parking ticket. > [@shadowfax](#): > > Problems specific to red light running have already been mentioned in this thread. No system of law enforcement is perfect. We can detect shortened yellows and stop the practice; it’s happened. Cops shoot up innocent bystanders but we don’t interfere with their shooting people up. > [@shadowfax](#): > > Cameras are profit-driven revenue generation. Profit motive is anathema to justice. Any time there’s a profit motive involved in the justice system, whether it’s red light cameras or private prisons Trump is bringing private prisons, which Obama tried to eliminate, back. This is an argument against all kinds of laws. Defraying some of the cost of law enforcement through fines happens in every jurisdiction any time there is money to collect. Prisons are charging prisoners for their stays. ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/bing/32/4619_2.png) [@bing](https://community.cartalk.com/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/43 "2017-03-16T20:17:10Z")
Well if I drive from Minnesota to Florida, I would prefer decent federal roads and bridges to travel over. I don’t want to just rely on the local taxes of Iowa or Georgia. That’s kinda what the interstate system was all about-to benefit the nation (or as an evacuation means in case of attack). Parking tickets are really not the same. What happens with a parking ticket if it is not paid, is a warrant will be issued for the arrest of the owner, or a notice sent to the owner of the vehicle to pay up or appear. Then you appear before a judge or administrative official to plea your case. So you get an opportunity to explain any circumstances. In my case I didn’t own the car anymore and just had to sign an affidavit to that effect and show the bill of sale. ---
**Author:** ![Whitey](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/whitey/32/24680_2.png) [@Whitey](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Whitey)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/44 "2017-03-16T20:32:19Z")
> [@bing](#): > > Well if I drive from Minnesota to Florida, I would prefer decent federal roads and bridges to travel over. I don’t want to just rely on the local taxes of Iowa or Georgia. To add to @bing’s point, if we only used local taxes for road maintenance, everyone who travels through that area, like commercial truck drivers, would become free riders. That wouldn’t be very efficient, and when I say that, I’m referring to tax efficiency, which is a measure of whether or not the people paying the taxes are the same people using the resources. ---
**Author:** ![insightful](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/insightful/32/2732_2.png) [@insightful](https://community.cartalk.com/u/insightful)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/45 "2017-03-16T20:35:35Z")
> [@RandomTroll](#): > > Prisons are charging prisoners for their stays. Now, there’s a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![bing](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/bing/32/4619_2.png) [@bing](https://community.cartalk.com/u/bing)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/46 "2017-03-16T20:42:51Z")
Minnesota has/had a pretty good prison industries program where they not only sell products like furniture but learn skills that can be used on the outside. Many of these folks though are damaged goods (and some make you shiver) and the trick is to keep them off the streets until they are older. Statistically older folks commit fewer crimes. ---
**Author:** ![shadowfax](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/shadowfax/32/13026_2.png) [@shadowfax](https://community.cartalk.com/u/shadowfax)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/47 "2017-03-17T12:58:26Z")
> [@insightful](#): > > Now, there’s a good idea. It’s a terrible idea. Picture yourself as a prisoner. You’ve just gotten out of prison after a 20 year sentence. You have no job. You’re 20 years behind where you should be as far as savings and wealth-building goes. You are going to have a hard time getting a job because many employers balk at hiring felons. And now you have a giant Greybar Hotel bill to pay. How’re you gonna get the money? We really shouldn’t be pointing ex-cons down a path where the only viable means of meeting their obligations is to start stealing. ---
**Author:** ![BillRussell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/billrussell/32/3179_2.png) [@BillRussell](https://community.cartalk.com/u/BillRussell)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/48 "2017-03-17T13:41:37Z")
> [@keith](#): > > If you run a red light, you broke the law, period. If you get caught, pay the fine. You do have redress in that you can fight the ticket in court, but good luck with that. > > They do increase public safety. I agree 100%. You break the law, you pay the fine. period. ---
**Author:** ![insightful](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/insightful/32/2732_2.png) [@insightful](https://community.cartalk.com/u/insightful)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2017, 2:44pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/49 "2017-03-17T14:44:04Z")
> [@shadowfax](#): > > And now you have a giant Greybar Hotel bill to pay. Obviously, you would charge only those who can afford it on a pay-as-you-go basis. ---
**Author:** ![RandomTroll](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/randomtroll/32/12184_2.png) [@RandomTroll](https://community.cartalk.com/u/RandomTroll)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738/50 "2017-05-05T03:41:14Z")
``` 'Citizen Scientist Challenges Math Behind Red Light Camera Tickets' ``` [http://www.npr.org/2017/05/04/526931921/citizen-scientist-challenges-math-behind-red-light-camera-tickets](http://www.npr.org/2017/05/04/526931921/citizen-scientist-challenges-math-behind-red-light-camera-tickets) [Previous page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/red-light-runners-on-youtube/100738.md?page=2)