Ray's Gas Tax Rant

Maintenance/Repairs
161

This was beat to death on the old board, but I?ll toss my thoughts in.

The US uses about 388.6 million gallons of gasoline a day so a .50 tax the GOVERNMENT would receive about $194 million per day or about $70.9 billion per year or about $236 per person per year in NEW taxes. And we are supposed to trust the government to spend the money wisely? I think not.

The money would be siphoned off for other worthwhile projects and soon the roads would be forgotten, the bridges would be forgotten, and in very short few years they would raise the tax to pay for roads and bridges again and soon that money would be spent on other things.

If you don?t think so, you need to look no further than the Social Security Trust Fund. That fund took in a lot more money then it paid out, the government bought US treasury bonds, that is the government borrowed the money and spent it.

?Some in our country think that Social Security is a trust fund – in other words, there’s a pile of money being accumulated. That’s just simply not true. The money – payroll taxes going into the Social Security are spent. They’re spent on benefits and they’re spent on government programs. There is no trust.? Bush

In 1939 President Roosevelt promised and intended that the money the participants paid would be put into the independent ?Trust Fund,? now the government is telling us there is no trust.

So not only do we get to pay Social Security tax, but our taxes will get raised even more to cover the money the government spent so you get to pay for SS twice.

And Ray wants to give them even more money?

And we won?t even go into what that would do to our economy part, not all of what we are seeing in our economy was in part from high fuel prices. And while our economy is hurting, Ray wants a family of four to pay out another $900+ in new taxes.

It will be the consumer who pays all the tax, businesses don?t really pay tax, it a cost to them and they pass it on to the consumer who pays it.

I?ll post a link to the old thread if I can find it.

162

Raising taxes on gas sounds like it would bring billions of dollars so the government can use it on the public. Unfortunately, with our congress today we would see those billions of dollars dissappear and nothing to show for it. If a gas tax was to go through I would not give the money to GM or Ford to build trains. I would give it to Transrapid International or American Maglev Technology Of Florida Inc. These companies would use the money for building high speed rails. If the UAW starts building a high speed train the cost would be five times higher than if an independent company does the contruction.

I propose to let public demand be the reason to build a high speed rail. If the public wants it, investors will bring in the money, a company will build it, and a operator will make it profitable. Lets keep the government out of projects like a high speed rail.

163

Yes, yes, yes. And I agree with plhamby below that the proceeds of the tax should be specified when tax written into law, as in case of cigarette tax and health care. However…as the House has found ways to raid our Social Security funds umpteen times, I think the energy tax law needs to be written by God and enforced by Him. Since that is not possible, we need a sort of Peoples’ Oversight Board, a kind of Auditors Without Borders, unconnected to Capitol Hill, the Office of Management and Budget, the Congressional Budget Office, Inspectors General, etc–those people that tend to be political appointees and therefore can’t do the job they were appointed to do, that can actually see receipts for money spent on distributing discounts/tax breaks on solar panels, discounts/tax breaks on hybrid cars, etc.–in fact, now that I think about it, we need some flash of brilliance like an “Auditors without Borders” for everything on Capitol Hill!

164

I’m going to side with the folks that disagree with Ray. This country was founded on a basis of fighting against taxes (Boston Tea Party) and I strongly believe that still applies. The only group that will benefit from a gas tax is government. Government is horribly inefficient at using the money they’ve got, they can’t even balance a budget, so why give them more. I agree with Ray that necessity will drive more efficient vehicles, but I don’t believe it will come as a result of giving our government more money.

The biggest obstacle to better vehicles is our legal system which has been supported by the Big 3. As an individual, I could build myself a car and I might be able to get it registered for use on the street, but I would have a very difficult time building one for and selling it to someone else. All new cars have to pass certain safety tests and comply with the list of things required from state to state for a vehicle set by the federal and state DMVs. Most customer builders get past this by building on ancient chassis, where the laws don’t apply, or using a 3-wheel chassis, so the custom car can be certified as a motorcycle instead of a car. So let’s say someone comes up with a really innovative vehicle design, maybe it can run forever on a nuclear fueled peltier cooler running in reverse or something. Just try getting that past an EPA certification board.

In case you’re counting, I justed listed three government agencies standing in the way of getting your nifty difty new efficient vehicle to the masses, DOJ, DMV and EPA. That’s just a start. Now why would you want to give these people more money? They’re the ones standing in our way.

Sorry Ray, but your idea stinks. :slight_smile:

165

The sooner we we do this the sooner we will 1.)quit buying foreign oil, 2.) be free of funding terrorism, 2.) polluting the environment, 3.) getting the road infrastructure fixed, 4.) quit buying inefficient cars and forcing the car industry to build cars that get decent milage, 5.) getting a European commuter train system built. There are more benefits. If you don’t like taxes, move to Mexico and be an American in exile in a cheap place. See how that works for you.

166

I am all for increasing public transportation, greener vehicles, and reducing dependency on oil period. But…I have spent the majority of my life living and working in rural areas, including growing up on a farm. The only public transportation that exists in these areas are school buses, or the friend that gives you a ride into town. Are you aware of what it takes when the nearest hospital is twenty, thirty, or more miles away? Or the nearest grocery store is ten miles away? As to those heavy duty trucks that guzzle gas, well I’d like to see you transport a hundred bales of hay or half a dozen cows in an Accord. The last time I checked, John Deere wasn’t making hybrid tractors, and plowing with a mule is not the bucolic picture you might think it is.
Personally I think the gas tax idea could be modified according to use. Live in an area where you have access to public transportation - the gas tax needs to be in place. Going on a trip to the mountains or the beach for vacation - add the gas tax. But lessen the tax on those who live and work in the rural areas - farmers, miners, fishers, park rangers carrying for state and national parks - that is to say think about who is being taxed before levying it.
Ray, your rant only works in the cities.

167

Good post Claudia! Countries with high gasoline and diesel taxes have special exemptions for those who REALLY NEED TRUCKS. Farmers demonstrate they need a truck or tractor for business use, and can claim the tax back at the end of the year.I too grew up on a farm, and did this annually for my dad.

The tax structure is flexible enough to acommodate low income families (by giving them a credit at the yers end) who must drive, farmers, fishermen and other commercial operators and the taxes raised can also fund a sustainable transportation infrastructure, which the new government will emphasize as one way to stimulate the economy.

I could make a list of all the countries that are already doing this successfully, but the list would be long. Canada, a large, cold country has twice the tax on gasoline as the US. The best selling car there for the last 10 years there is the Honda Civic, prior to that the Chevy Cavalier, and prior to that the Ford Tempo.

Canadians also buy big cars and trucks, mostly based on need, but not nearly in the dysfunctional proportion that Americans do.

168

We still don’t know what happened to the bail out money for the banks. Still a credit crisis in that people want to buy cars and can’t get loans. I have old cars, and actually am considering replacing both with a hybrid. I want to see what the Honda version is like since the Prius prices got so crazy when the gas prices were $4+ Here in IL, we have so many taxes on gas, that were were the highest gas anywhere. And despite this (and of course we have the idiot corrupt governor), state doesn’t have money to pay its bills. I don’t trust that “our legislature” will use the money appropriately to fix the roads and to do the right thing. So no, I am against more gas taxes. The world is supposed to change on the 20th. I will give it a little time, and if it looks like things might go back to benefiting “the people” I might be okay with a gas tax.
The good thing I saw from the price of gas going up last summer was people traded in the big gas guzzling SUV’s they bought to show how affluent they were, and I had several less idiots riding my bumper trying to intimidate me in my merely middle class car.
They would have had a big issue if they had hit me because the car is certified as a classic car, and it gets decent gas mileage because I keep it up. But I think to get people realistic, gas at $2 has gotten the wrong type of drivers back to mean.

169

Why a gas tax? Why not a $10/barrel tax on oil? I used to think a $10 tax on imported oil but realized that would be against the WTO rules, so tax all oil. It would serve two purposes, it would generate revenue to pay down the national debt and help promote conservation and alternative fuel development. A $10/barrel tax would translate to about $0.10/gallon increase in gasoline; 2007 proved that the American public would grip but swallow the cost increase.

FYI, England imposed an added gas tax, as you suggest. They called it a “congestion tax”. The purpose was to drive people to use mass transis more. I was in Scotland in May of 2008 and the BBC was reporting that the tax had been proven effective and therefore the government would not likely reduce taxes in the face of popular demands because of the hig oil price. At that time (May 2008) they paying $10/gallon for gasoline!

170

Will it work? No. Gasoline taxes only raise sufficient revenue when consumption is high. At present demand is low. An increase in the gas tax is likely to drive demand down. Instead of increasing revenue it will decrease revenue. Hikes in gas taxes only work when demand is high. In the present economy, any increase is likely to drive demand down significantly.

Will it improve transportation infrastructure? No. The last 20 years Americans have driven bigger and bigger cars and consumed more and more gasoline, thereby increasing gas tax revenues considerably. In the meantime infrastructure has continued to decline. In the present economy, with states scrounging to support all of their programs, there?s little chance that they will devote increased revenues to infrastructure. The federal government is in a similar bind, they will do the same.

Will it stimulate research into alternate forms of transportation? Absolutely not. Gas tax revenues, when not diverted to other programs, support infrastructure. Excepting possibly California, no state is going to dedicate those funds to anything that isn?t essential, infrastructure, or pork. The federal government will behave no differently. At present, it can?t afford to.

Federal programs concerning alternative energy only get significant funding when energy costs are high. When energy costs are low, the funds are diverted elsewhere. The federal government has been involved in alternative energy for more than 30 years - why would you think they?re suddenly going to get it right now?

171

The tax that has been collected for years is not being used for roads, etc as they were supposed to be. While the “foreclosure” crisis has been getting the most press, that only affected a small % of people. High gas prices affected everyone and is what pushed the economy over the edge with with the trickle down effect of higher food prices.

An extra gas tax would make it more difficult for our country to pull out of the recession. Cheap food staples are most affected by high transportation prices so a gas tax would artificially inflate food prices and further hurt those with lower incomes. The gov’t would then want MORE taxes to subsidize them.

172

50 cent tax on gas!!?? You must have put the seed for this in the heads of some legislators as they are already talking about a 50 percent increase in fuel taxes. While this may look like a good idea it does not solve the problem in the long run. What about those all electric cars? Are they to use the same infrastructure without paying for its creation and maintenance? How about those folks who make their own fuel out of used deep fry oil? How do you get people to pay for the road they use? The answer is this: You charge them by the mile. How do you do that? You require everyone who drives on public roads to have one of those GPS mapping devices that not only tells them where to go but also logs where they’ve been and how many miles they have driven. You read your miles driven periodically and pay your road usage fee. That way you would capture revenue from everyone that uses the roads no matter how they power their vehicle. That still leaves you with the political problem, what to do with the politicians.

173

I Totally Agree in Europe gas is around 5-6 dollars per gallon. And they are surviving just fine. Also The building of a high speed intercity rail system would both save Americans thousands of hours in time not spent waiting for airport security. Alos it is much more energy efficient.

174

I created a web site to publish how my plan to raise the gas taxes by 10 cents every 60 days will move the US towards success in ending OPEC dependency, lowering greenhouse gas emissions and their effects on the environment, and provide funding for public transit systems and alternative energy R & D. It’s at http://gastaxforchange.org I am preparing to present my ideas to my Congressional representatives very shortly.

175

i’m tired of hearing the hummers use alot of fuel story! hummers are no more than a handful when counted against all the cars in this country or the world for that matter. count how many hummers you see in your town. then count how many other vehicles are in your town. “huge difference”. they probably put out less pollution than half the vehicles in your town that haven’t been tuned up since the day they were bought.

176

I agree with Ray! We need to get away from so many cars and get some modern trains like Europe has and get other forms of transportation. We need to walk or bike that one mile to a store or those few miles to work…for our health and for our environment’s sake…

177

I recently heard a proposal on this that suggested implementing the tax (as a carbon tax, generically) by increasing it gradually at 10 cents per month or so. That would be slower than the price of gas went up in the first half of 2008, I think. That should at least avoid a shock to the system. Some of the money could go not only to transportation infrastructure projects, like roads, bridges, and mass transit, but also to grants for companies (like Tesla) who are working on fossil-free fueled cars that can still do what Americans like their cars to do.

As for the issue of whether the government can be trusted to spend our money, well, first I have to say that most of us Americans can’t be trusted to spend our own money. (Ok, that is somewhat facetious, but in there somewhere is a grain of truth.) But seriously, I think there is some desire by the current crop of politicians in power to stop the earmarking (for those Tobacco museums) and to do better at spending the money. It’s not perfect, but in times of crisis, sometimes the problems are too big for individuals and small organizations to do on their own. Transportation infrastructure, global climate impacts are two such problems. Plus pouring money into infrastructure and new technology is a great way to revive the economy.

Finally, there might be some way (although I can’t think of how) to mitigate the cost increases in the short term for folks that rely on their big gas guzzling trucks (i.e. teamsters, contractors, realtors, salespeople) so that it doesn’t kill them while our world is retooled for more efficient transportation of all kinds.

Yours truly,
A starry eyed optimist

178

I totally agree with Ray’s proposal of an additional 50 cent per gallon tax on gasoline. However I think it should go one step further. I propose that owners of Escalades, Hummers and other vehicles that could be used to invade Turkmenistan be taxed an additional 2 or 3 dollars. When gas prices stay low we know that status-seeking suburban Moms and men who feel the need to compensate for their … shall we say… shortcomings … continue to purchase these behemoths, creating demand Detroit will want to fill.

It could work like those measuring devices airlines use to determine whether your bag will fit in the overhead compartment. When you pull up to the first pump, if the guy behind you can’t use the second pump because your monster truck is blocking it, you will be directed to the I. I. pumps (Irresponsible Idiots) with the higher tax built in. The extra revenue should be used for Detroit’s bailout because why should I, a loyal Japanese car owner, pay to save companies whose products I would never buy???

179

I think Jackmaker needs a refresher course in American History. The colonists did not have a problem with taxes – they had a problem with not being represented in the British Parliament. Remember “No taxation without representation”? Once we achieved independence the founding fathers realized it was necessary to collect taxes to run the government

180

Yes, for expedience Mr. Friedman is going into the camp of the Constitution shredders.
Check your phone bill. What’s the “Universal connectivity charge?” Did Congress legislate this “fee” (tax)? Most of America is unaware of this travesty - it’s Ok though! The government knows how better to spend my money than I do!(???)
It’s a pretty simple concept - and the framers of our government made it that way so any Joe Schmoe paying attention could see when the government was beginning to rip off the citizenry - taxes are for the defense of the nation and administration of government - NOT FOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROL OF CITIZENS!