texases -
By definition of the terms “on par” and “world-class”.
@Triedaq -
I’ll take a Tecumseh… always been fabulous engines. Unfortunately many are attached to Toro mowers, and Toro, well…
I’ve always found the Brigss and Stratton engines to be fussy…Love the Tecumseh engines…Especially their snow-king which is found on many snow blowers like Ariens.
My current home mower (Ferris) has a 14hp Kawasaki…GREAT engine…15 years old and still in excellent condition…starts first pull every time.
“Love the Tecumseh engines”.
We have a mower that was made in 1988 (23 years ago) with a Tecumseh engine. I’ve never had a problem with the engine. My wife loves to mow and I don’t like doing it. However, I tell her that the lawnmower is a delicate piece of equipment and with the age of the mower, I don’t want her to use it. (Actually, she has had foot surgery and rotator cuff surgery and I would rather mow the yard myself than have her go through more sugeries. She claims she is fine, so I have to make the excuse about the lawnmower).
The difference between outstanding and poor in CRs ratings has decreased over the years. IIRC, outstanding is less than 0.5% problems reported with a subsystem. Poor is greater than 3%. The terminology has not changed even though the criteria have. If you think that paying apremium of a couple grand on a Honda or Toyota vs. a Chevrolet is worth it, you might want to reconsider. But at least CR will tell you how they rate the automobile subsystems. You have to connect the dots.
I’m highjacking this post to dump on an Asian manufacturer; Treidag started it.
I took my Fishing boat with a little 30 hp Suzuki OB into a Suzuki dealer to have a tune up. Figured they would know what to do, right ? It was running rough and they agreed that a carb cleaning and adjustment (it has three) and a new impeller for the pump and I should be fine. After a month of playing with it and taking the carbs apart three times, they finally discovered that “they” had broken the mixture adjustment screws in all three carbs. They actually told me this. The protective caveat they used is that the Suzuki tech people told them (their story) that this is not unusual to do and the only fix was to order three new carbs.
They cost $350 each with a now total bill of close to $2000, more than the 04 motor with fewer than 100 hrs is worth trade in. So I guess that Suzuki carbs can’t be “cleaned” and have to be replaced. BTW, they are similar to those used on other motors for non marine applications; ATVs etc.
I guess I’m responsible for their overtime and learning on my motor and their incompetence in breaking my “carbs”. I have a call into Suzuki complaint department…still waiting for their response and w/o a boat for 5 weeks. They get a few more days and the next step for me is our state attorney general.
Right now, I wouldn’t buy a Suzuki ANYTHING, especially from this local dealer.
I live in what you guys would probably call a third world country. (Malaysia) But we enjoy trouble free motoring whatever we buy. Mechanics here are so spoilt, they are reluctant to undertake anything but basic maintenance.
We as a family, have had GM products (Opels) of the 60’s and the 70’s that were bullet proof and far advanced for their time as features went. We gassed them up and we used them with no problems whatsoever.
Why do you guys have so many problems with your cars?
Per my earlier comment regarding problems originating in the 70s and 80s meant the Asian cars were exempt. I did not say that or insinuate it.
My point is that the domestic cars at the times were eyebrow deep in feedback carburetors, vapor lock, solenoids, vacuum hoses, ad nauseum but the Asian cars were also eyebrow deep in the same situation.
CR reliability index is subjective and that is based on a miniscule sampling of cars with subjective complaints.
Something else to consider is that a 1 point spread can make the difference between an average car and a above average car according to CR.
CR is also a bit disengenous with the statement about not taking ad money, etc. That’s playing a bit of a word game. CR does not take ad money but Consumers Union (the corporate parent of CR) takes plenty from various corporate foundations and some of those foundations have a history of doling money out to some shady enterprises.
Let me add this about mechanics. A mechanic who works for a (fill in the blank) franchise will often go home every evening cursing the cars that are sold by his employer because he spends day in and day out wrestling problems. It’s only normal to develop a distaste for the cars that are giving you trouble all of the time.
The dealers I’ve worked for (other than Nissan) were mult-line dealers with anywhere from 3 to 6 lines of new cars.
So using the real life Honda/VW/SAAB example someone tell me why there are at least as many if not more Hondas in the shop for problems as there are VWs and SAABs.
Since VW and SAAB gets the bad rap this should mean there are few problem Hondas in the shop and the warranty parts pile for Honda should be much smaller than the other 2. That was not the case. Why not?
Same with Subaru. Problem Subarus far outnumbered problem VWs so this would not jive with the VW bad/Subaru good argument.
Let me add that I barely had time to skim the August 2011 issue of CR but I think that CR gives a higher rating to the Ford Taurus than they do to the Toyota Avalon and the Honda Accord.
CR is still a load of fertilizer IMO but if one wants to consider CR as the final word then this means you should agree that the Ford is superior to the Honda and the Toyota.
Maybe someone wants to dredge that issue up and weigh in on it.
As I’ve Said Before, I Use CU For Buying Vacuum Cleaners, Coffee Makers, Dish Washer Detergent, Etcetera. The features (What They’ll Deliver) And Reliabilty Of These Products Vary Greatly And They Actually Test Them.
Why spend (waste) an extra hundred bucks when buying a coffee maker or paying too much for detergent that won’t clean or a vacuum cleaner that’s so loud it causes hearing loss and does’t clean bare floors half as well as it cleans carpet ?
As I’ve also said before, I look at the car evaluations, the ones where they look the car over and comment on interior room, trunk space, etcetera. This is useful information. The reliability results from surveys is what I can’t use. It doesn’t match my experience with my car choices. There’s no need for me to try and find anything more reliable than the Chryslers and GM (Chevrolets, and Pontiacs) cars in my driveway. In hundreds of thousands of miles, they need gasoline and some Mobil-1, but not much else.
Do I seem to be stupid enough about cars that I would keep buying unreliable cars that have peculiar things breaking all the time ?
As OK has pointed out and I’ve said before, There’s not a hill of beens of difference in the different makes and models when it comes to reliability (except perhaps the warranties). So why put so much stock in “reliability ratings” given by an unknown audience ?
Another thing, many problems that people of some makes / models (including Asian) report would have been covered by GM’s included 100,000 mile / 5 year powertrain warranty like the one that was free with my wife’s Chevy Impala. The car was “certified” used (with 10,000 miles) and she’s put 20,000 miles on it since fall and it’s needed nothing but gas (30+ MPG). Certified program gave it a free 48 month / 48,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty in addition to the powertrain warranty.
I have to wonder why if the Asian makes are superior in reliability, why don’t Toyota, Honda, and Subaru step-up and top GM’s warranty ? Also, why would a company who sells supposed unreliable cars want to be liable for repairs for so long ? They put their money where their mouth is.
Another thing, I have no Asian car dealers around here. I’d have to drive 4 hours for warranty work and then what if that dealer is a lousy one ? There’s not another one nearby. Chrysler, Ford, And GM dealers surround my location. I can choose a good one I’m comfortable with if I ever do need anything.
What I also was saying is that’s it’s uninformed or not really fair or honest to keep telling folks who ask questions here about car purchases to avoid buying GM cars or Fords, etcetera. To do that would cause a person to miss some of the best cars out there at the best prices.
As Jtsanders so aptly said, "If you think that paying a premium of a couple grand on a Honda or Toyota vs. a Chevrolet is worth it, you might want to reconsider."
The better advice is to consider all vehicle available and to consider dealer support and warranty coverage.
CSA
My feeling still is that the best and only accurate way of knowing what’s going on would be if there were a database of every single complaint made (new car dealer level since this generally involves initial ownership and warranty) and the numbers were then crunched.
It’s also true that this would be near impossible to do.
Let me provide an example of why even this could be flawed.
I worked for a multi-line dealer; 2 import lines and Pontiac/GMC. I had zero to do with the domestics.
Assume owner brings car in (still under warranty) for 2 knick-knack complaints. No matter the complaint and the resolution on the theoretical Pontiac it will wind up in the file.
With the imports what generally happens is that the warranty claim on an identical complaint will be kicked back where it will die a quick death and end up in the circular file. This has been a common thing to occur and is part and parcel of why I finally tossed in the towel when it comes to working for dealers on the new foreign car level.
This process has cost me a lot of time and money over the years along with elevating the blood pressure through the roof.
So if one looks at the Pontiac file one would see a far greater number of complaints on file. Indications of a car much more problematic than it’s foreign counterpart? Not really.
So up to this point there is no evidence. There are subjective opinions, anecdotal evidence, stories from the darkside and whatnot with CR which also provides subjective opinions along with subjective complaints. The “subjective” part is CR’s word, not mine.
My point in this thread was to see if anyone could actually provide anything other than an opinion and thanks for the input.
“Prem Das” ; let me ask you a question. How many miles per year do you put on your cars, and how fast do you drive them ? I had a third world Suzuki sidekick that responded well to low speed, poor road, low mileage use. Otherwise, it became unreliable and inappropriate for use on our highways as it aged. In addiion, few here can even change their own tires. Mechanics and hired guns have to add air to our tires for us as we don’t even have tire pumps anymore, electric or otherwise. We are mechanical “nimrods”.
“So using the real life Honda/VW/SAAB example someone tell me why there are at least as many if not more Hondas in the shop for problems as there are VWs and SAABs.”
Probably because there are twice as many Honda’s sold then VW or SAAB’s. Back in the 70’s Ford guys would always say…to prove that Ford is a better built vehicle…if you drive around town you’ll see more GM’s broken down off the road then Ford’s…Well gee…since GM was outselling Ford 3:1…of course you’re going to see more.
OK…all I can say about your experience at the dealership is that it’s YOUR experience…I’ve said this several times in this forum…Friend of mine from high-school owns a Nissan and GMC dealership in NY…Use to be a Pontiac dealership too…He had ONE garage that serviced all the vehicles…My sisters neighbor is now semi-retired was the head mechanic there for over 20 years…He’s never had a bad word to say about how Nissan handles their service…Since working there he’s a dedicated Nissan owner.
So from YOUR experience it’s more of personal vendetta then actual hard facts…
" My point in this thread was to see if anyone could actually provide anything other than an opinion and thanks for the input."
And you’re right…All everyone here INCLUDING YOU is their opinion…So what’s your point…You haven’t proven to anyone that Domestic cars are as good as Asian…All you’ve stated is YOUR opinion…no facts…just opinion…
To me it’s a fact that when CR compares thousands of survey responses and find clear brand (not model) trends, year after year, that there is a difference. We can argue about how much of a difference, or how big of a difference, but a sea of “black dots” for an entire brand means something when compared to a sea of “red dots”. Are folks saying that is meaningless?
I agree that CR does show an overall general trend on how reliable vehicles are.
My only problem with CR is when trying to get information about a specific vehicle…you have to be careful. But in general it’s ONE good source. But I wouldn’t use it as THEE source. Just one in many.
I agree. And reliability is only one thing that goes into buying a car. I’ve bought ‘average’ reliability cars that were right for me.
“And reliability is only one thing that goes into buying a car.”
For me…reliability it’s at the top of the list.
Come on Mike…tell me you wouldn’t jump at the chance to buy an “unreliable” Vette for a very good price. I can think of a plethora of cars that were less reliable then most that were bought by guys like us because they fullfilled a need…or dream. :=)
You are 100% correct dagosa…I’d LOVE an older unreliable Vette…But I wouldn’t be using it as my daily commuter.
There are many cars out there I’d love to have that are NOT very reliable…In fact if I had the money and time I’d be willing to buy an older Vega to restore…
Good grief, why would anyone in their right mind want to restore a Vega? 
(horrid memories of vinyl seats and that lousy engine)
OTOH, a coworker and I have thought it would be fun to have a museum of automotive lemons and duds, and the Vega would be a perfect fit there…