“So tax the car makers not the users. Tax the users for that which they have control over - their driving habbits.”
I agree with Craig about who will pay. The tax will be passed on to the customer, and possibly to the ones who buy the popular cars and trucks. The popular cars might be the small ones, and that doesn’t seem appropriate. Besides, the manufacturers have the new CAFE regulations to deal with. If you want the user to pay, maybe you would prefer a fuel tax to a guzzler tax. Assuming, of course, you could hold your nose and pay for any tax. Would that curb their habit?
Yeah - Craig is correct…
I believe that people in general are forgetfull. Charge them a big bill for a gas guzzler and they will whine and complain and forget about it in about as long as it takes for brittany spears to show up in the news.
If you charge them every time they fill up - then something might happen. BUT - don’t tax for the sake of changing behavour - tax to pay for real costs - just do it in a way that results in people taking action and not just complaining for a while and then forgetting.
“…they will whine and complain and forget about it in about as long as it takes for brittany spears to show up in the news.”
Brittany is on the news? What channel?
Just went shopping and parked beside a Scion xB, a very tall and boxy economy car with tons of headroom and legroom. We hear all these knee-jerk complaints from tall people that that they need large cars or trucks. Did you know that Swedes and Norwegians on average are taller than Americans? The tallest people in the world today are…DUTCHMEN, not Americans! Most Dutchmen drive sensible and roomy cars, and are in better physical shape than American males. There is a large choice out there in roomy, economical cars.
Old habits die hard; my wife can’t imagine using a front-loading washing machine when her old top loader packs it in! My sister had great difficulty learning to cook with a microwave.
“You’re right, the cost of doing business is passed along to the consumers. So who is really hurt most by this?”
Consider this. High fuel use cost is passed along to the consumer. That puts the provider who chooses a less efficient way of getting his goods manufactured or transported to market at a disadvantage to the one who chooses more wisely. It also means the consumer who chooses a product that is more fuel intensive in production and distribution will pay more and be encouraged to choose other products.
As consumers it is difficult to even determine what products cost more in terms of fuel usage and pollution. Selective taxes that are passed on to the consumer is one why of getting the consumer involved.
“There are many examples of small businesses that rely on work vehicles and the economy is at a point where many cannot afford such a proposal.”
The cost will be passed on to the consumer who will make the choice if they want the product. The choice will be made by the marketplace not by some government official who might decide we still need buggy whips because the buggy whip manufacturers and unions want to continue making buggy whips.
Yes, the cost of fuel and pollution will cause some changes, that is the idea.
“The point was that many people have a legitimate use for such a vehicle and there is no alternative choice (e.g. farmers).”
And will not the farmer’s pass the cost on to the consumer? Then will not the consumer then be able to make the choice to a less fuel intensive food?
Trying to maintain the status quo in a dynamic market and a changing world, will only lead to failure.
The PROBLEM with increasing tax so fast is it’s really going to hurt the lower income people. The less you earn the harder it is to adjust to major increases in spending. There are people in this country who work 50-60 hours a week have a hard time just putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their head. And when you now ask them to spend $10-$20 more per week…it’s a MAJOR BURDEN to them and their budget. What food item do they give up?? What days in the winter are you asking them NOT to heat their house?? The guy they rent their house from isn’t lowering the rent for them…The food prices aren’t going down…in fact it’ll be going up because of the increase in transportation cost…Heating oil will also go up because of the increase in transportation cost.
It’s a lot easier for lower income people to adjust to these increases when it’s slow. To all of a sudden thrust them into it will hurt many many hard working families all across this country.
Well, I agree with Docnick. I actually had these same concerns about 3 years ago when I took a trip to Europe and saw how they handled their energy needs and how they really developed their mass transit. One of the things that gets me is that US auto makers will sell, fuel efficient good cars in Europe but not in the US ( I guess there isn’t a “market” for those type of vehicles here). At the time I was pretty worried about the US’s apathy about energy planning, and I still am and subsequently chose to leave LA and moved to San Francisco. I sold my car and found a job 2 miles from my home. ( by the way I don’t agree that the free market is the best guide, in fact if the current sub-prime mortgage boom and subsequent meltdown is any indicator of Market forces at work, I would think twice about leaving everything to market forces) I think the time has come for the US to take some medicine to cure us of our addiction to oil. It’s not easy but I rather it is done on our terms than to wait for outside forces to determine our course of action. So bring on the Fuel Tax, I am ready for it and can’t wait for America to step it up and become a leader again, fuel efficient cars, alternative energy sources, a new green economy.
Which is why I advocate lowering Income tax by the amount spent on road maintenance and recover that money from a fuel tax. Lower income people will likely pay less overall taxes as they typically buy less fuel as it is. Let the gas hogs bear the burden.
“So bring on the Fuel Tax, I am ready for it and can’t wait for America to step it up and become a leader again, fuel efficient cars, alternative energy sources, a new green economy.”
If you are really ready, email your US Senators and US Congressman. They have the power to create legislation to increase the tax on driving in any way that seems most equitable. Tell them what is fairest in your mind. It could be a higher gasoline tax, an expansion of the gas guzzler tax to include trucks, or some other method. Help them make a decision and maybe they will finally do something about it.
That will cover only part of it…and for the real poor it’s still a problem. They don’t pay enough in income tax to cover what they’ll be spending on the increased gas tax.
“There are people in this country who work 50-60 hours a week have a hard time just putting food on the table and keeping a roof over their head. And when you now ask them to spend $10-$20 more per week…it’s a MAJOR BURDEN to them and their budget. What food item do they give up?? What days in the winter are you asking them NOT to heat their house?? The guy they rent their house from isn’t lowering the rent for them…The food prices aren’t going down…in fact it’ll be going up because of the increase in transportation cost…Heating oil will also go up because of the increase in transportation cost.”
I don’t want this to sound nasty, but these arguments are based on the assumption that everyone in this country needs to live in a suburban or rural house and own a car. One could argue that the person who has a hard time putting food on the table needs to be living in less expensive housing near public transportation, and definitely does not need to own a vehicle. Folks who live in areas that are not served by public transportation have made a decision to live there, and they may not have the income to support that decision. If someone is spending a considerable portion of their income on transporting themselves to a low paying job, the price of gasoline may not be their biggest problem.
Mike, I’m really not trying to be insensitive to “lower income people”; but if you or I made $10/hour, would we be living in a rented house in NH trying to pay for our own heat and driving our own car a considerable distance to work? I certainly wouldn’t, I would be living in the cheapest available apartment near boston and the “T” line (without a car) and looking for a better job (if not a couple of better jobs). If necessary, I would be on the bus to another part of the country to find a better job and/or more affordable living, and I bet you would too.
Mike, I’m really not trying to be insensitive to “lower income people”; but if you or I made $10/hour, would we be living in a rented house in NH trying to pay for our own heat and driving our own car a considerable distance to work? I certainly wouldn’t,
You’re making a BIG assumption here…that these people have been poor all their adult lives. That they grew up poor…Many many people had it THRUST upon them…loss of job, loss of spouse…injury or sickness. It is NOW very very difficult to move and find work in a different town or state. Plus loose any support system that you might have.
I certainly wouldn’t, I would be living in the cheapest available apartment near boston and the “T” line (without a car) and looking for a better job (if not a couple of better jobs).
The cheapest apartment in Boston is probably 2-3 times the cheapest apartment price in NH. Cost of living in NH with a car will be cheaper then living in Boston.
If necessary, I would be on the bus to another part of the country to find a better job and/or more affordable living, and I bet you would too.
A good portion of people who live below the poverty level in this country live in very very rural areas in this country. I’m sorry…but to tell these people that the ONLY way to correct this major increase in Gas prices/tax is to move is just plain WRONG.
“A good portion of people who live below the poverty level in this country live in very very rural areas in this country. I’m sorry…but to tell these people that the ONLY way to correct this major increase in Gas prices/tax is to move is just plain WRONG.”
I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that increasing any specific tax is the only way to do anything. Taxing new vehicles that get combined EPA mileage below 21.5 MPG doesn’t affect them at all.
BTW, I’m sure there are some dangerous areas of Boston where someone can rent an efficiency for a very low cost. I used to work with a lot of people that traveled an hour or two from rural areas to get to work. They drove old cars and carpooled. They also made low wages, which is why the company hired them rather than locals in the first place.
“You’re making a BIG assumption here…that these people have been poor all their adult lives. That they grew up poor…Many many people had it THRUST upon them…loss of job, loss of spouse…injury or sickness. It is NOW very very difficult to move and find work in a different town or state. Plus loose any support system that you might have.”
And what would you do if you found yourself in that position tomorrow; better yet, what would our grandparents do (my grandfather got on a boat by himself to find work when he was about 14)? I hope I would do whatever it took to improve my situation, and I hope I would do it much quicker that the decade that it would take the phase in a gasoline tax. I also don’t think the price of gasoline would be my biggest concern at that point. “Support system” or not, I hope I would be living someplace where I could support myself by the end of the month.
Why is this any different than all the folks who end up out of work when some local employer closes down, and why aren’t they gone so fast that their shadow has to hurry to keep up? I really don’t understand the logic of waiting for someone else to solve your problems.
“A good portion of people who live below the poverty level in this country live in very very rural areas in this country. I’m sorry…but to tell these people that the ONLY way to correct this major increase in Gas prices/tax is to move is just plain WRONG.”
That is a social problem that goes well beyond the price of energy, and the price of energy is going up (way up) regardless of tax policy. No one is going to tell people where (or how) to live, but most of these folks will probably not be driving anything in 5 or 10 years anyway, they will either move or they will be walking (it’s unlikely any local government is going to provide public transportation to the kinds of areas you are talking about). At least increasing the price gradually with taxes will provide some control over the rate of increase and give them some time to do something for themselves.
What’s the alternative, do nothing and wait for the cost of energy to increase suddenly and catch them completely by surprise? Or would you rather aggressively transfer wealth so that folks “who live below the poverty level” can put $6/gallon gasoline in their old 10 mpg cars and drive to their minimum wage jobs? Neither of those alternatives seem very responsible either.
“BTW, I’m sure there are some dangerous areas of Boston where someone can rent an efficiency for a very low cost. I used to work with a lot of people that traveled an hour or two from rural areas to get to work. They drove old cars and carpooled. They also made low wages, which is why the company hired them rather than locals in the first place.”
Just like any city, there are cheap places to live in boston (not very nice but cheap), just ask some of the thousands of college students who live there on the cheap. I’m sure there are cheap places to live in NH too, but their public transportation wasn’t exactly “state of the art” when I lived there.
As the price of fuel increases, these “low wage” workers will simply move closer to their jobs or find jobs closer to where they live. The “low wage” employers will be forced to pay more to either attract local workers or make their commute worthwhile. I worked in boston for years, you could clearly watch the “professionals” commuting into the city on the subway while the “service workers” (who lived in the city) commuted out to the suburbs. Living in boston may not be cheap, but it’s cheaper than living in the suburbs of boston.
Just like any city, there are cheap places to live in boston (not very nice but cheap), just ask some of the thousands of college students who live there on the cheap.
You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about. I have a college student living there (MIT). It is NOT cheap at all…Try a 1 bedroom for $1200 in a run down building with rats and roaches. The ONLY way many of these students make it is by getting 4-5 students and all paying a piece of the rent. My daughter is currently in a 2 bedroom apartment with 4 other girls…there use to be a total of 6, but one girl dropped out. It’s in a little bit nicer neighborhood…but every time the T passes by you can feel it. Cost - $2500/mo.
You’re missing the point totally…And I believe that you’re taking a totally naive look at the situation. You are saying it’s BETTER to move…It would be cheaper to sell your car and move to the city…Well that’s just plain (shall I say stupid). It’s NOT that simple…And in many many cases it’s IMPOSSIBLE. You’re also making many many assumptions…like these people rent…and don’t OWN their house…That they have the money for a down payment for a new place…that they’ll be able to find even find work. It’s really easy to think of all these solutions when YOU’RE NOT the one it affects.
At least increasing the price gradually with taxes will provide some control over the rate of increase and give them some time to do something for themselves.
I agree that TAXING GRADUALLY is fine…but that’s NOT what was proposed…And that’s NOT what I was ever arguing against. If you read the OP or my comments I’m against adding this tax all at once…A gradual tax is fine…a hugh increase in tax all at once is very very difficult to adjust to.
What’s the alternative, do nothing and wait for the cost of energy to increase suddenly and catch them completely by surprise?
You’re saying the ONLY solution is to TAX it??? Please tell me that’s not so.
Here’s a nice little article on MSN.com just on this situation.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23637018
One thing they covered which I forgot about…Retirees. How are they suppose to cope with the increase in gas Tax??? Move to a high crime area in the city for cheaper rent?? Great solution…