Mitsubishi cheated too

General Discussion
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To his surprise, when he fired up that 20s car, probably a Buick, it passed current requirement levels. Just tune it by ear as we used to do and it was clean.
He passed the emissions standards for cars *in service*, which I'm sure you'll find are much less stringent than the standards a factory-new car has to meet to be sold in the USA. One BIG area of improvement in the last 20 years is eliminating "startup emissions." Used to be, you had a solitary "dumb," unheated cat somewhere underneath the passenger compartment. They worked great, once they got up to temp, but it was just accepted that the first few minutes or so would be much "dirtier" until warmup. By and large, folks were fine with that, as the vast majority of pollutants were being treated, the vast majority of the time.

Since then, we’ve got “close-coupled” cats, “pre-cats,” and “heated O2 sensors”…all of which greatly reduce the time until cat light-off, and thus the amount of time a car runs “dirty.” Your friend’s emission test was done on a car at equilibrium, so these improvements in warmup would not be tested for.

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Incredibly fascinating discussion. I think the real problem is too many people consuming ever larger amounts of ever-dwindling finite natural resources. I know “peak oil” has been largely discredited. . . for now. But with ever increasing population driving an ever increasing number of vehicles, I guarantee we will eventually pay $10, $20, and beyond for a gallon of gas, and if we don’t have a renewable fuel source in the pipeline, so to speak, we’ll end up going back to a stone age existence, but not without severe social turmoil, war, etc. Hopefully this won’t happen in our lifetimes.

Same thing with the water. We’ve dammed the rivers and tapped the aquafers, and now 10’s of millions of people live, and 10’s of millions of acres are farmed - on land where prairie dogs should be mating, and not much else.

You’d think people would want to conserve finite resources, save something for their children and grandchildren - but in reality people seem to be incredibly short-sighted, narcissistic, myopic, selfish, and ignorant. A colleague of mine swears emphatically that human civilization could be saved if someone could just find a way to increase the average human I.Q. by ten points.

I think I understand the point some of you make about not having an all-powerful nanny state regulating and taxing the populace into behaving “correctly”. I like my freedom too. Ideally, you’d have an educated population capable of critical thinking skills who would make better decisions for the future of our finite planet, but I’m not holding my breath for any of that to happen. If the earth’s population was 700 million instead of 7 billion, I don’t think we’d have any of these problems. Again, I sincerely HOPE that I am wrong, but I strongly suspect we are all doomed. We’re going to use up these finite resources like so much draft beer at a frat party and go into a rapid decline, while conservatives and liberals argue endlessly over what to do, if anything, about it.

Oh well, at least we made it to the moon. No one can take that away from us. Millions of years from now, when the human race is long gone and forgotten, our flag and car will still be sitting on the moon. I take comfort in that, oddly enough. (. . . and probably all of those little remote control cars we’ve been sending to Mars in recent years too. . . )

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Reading @Barkydog 's post re; Ted Cruz, he sounds more like an anarchist than a conservative to me. Eliminate the IRS? How’s he going to collect any taxes? Are we going to keep a standing army? Eliminate the Department of Education? You know in some of the Bible Belt states, they’ll be teaching the Bible in science class. . . Holy Crap.

The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. I know the Republicans have been strongly against this from the beginning. The savvy will simply prey on the weak and uneducated. If you had a properly educated population, it may be a different story, but- - - oh wait, they want to eliminate the Department of Education too.

What do these Republicans really want to do? Issue every American an AR-15, 5000 rounds of ammunition, 500 pounds of flour, 500 pounds of rice, and 500 gallons of water, dismantle the federal gov’t, and. . . you’re ON YOUR OWN. Good luck and God speed to ya! (Although I suppose that would take care of the surplus population problem I mentioned in my previous post.)

And then you’ve got Bernie Sanders on the other side promising FREE ST for EVERYBODY (except me, I’m sure I made just too much money last year to qualify for any of the FREE ST).

How did we ever come to this? Where are all the pragmatic rational moderates anymore?! See what happens when all the sane people don’t bother to vote?

64

Did you know that To this Very Day… I think like 20% of the cost of Alcohol products goes to the “Johnstown Flood” fund? I think we “handled” those costs LONG Long ago… How is Johnstown doin today? LOL… Should be doing Stellar…with all the money flooding into it since what…the 30’s ? Just my guess here but I seriously doubt Johnstown is receiving these funds to this day…in any way…

Above came from memory… Here is an article… Im feeling a little lazy at 6AM

Blackbird

65

@irlandes Yes…I can believe that… The standards by which that 20’s vehicle were being judged were more likely the standard for that vehicle and its decade than the 90’s standard. What I mean to say is that it was tested in the 90’s but not at new car standards…it was tested for acceptable levels for that decade of vehicle in the 90’s…which means it had more leeway bec the assumption is that it can be dirtier…but that is offset by the fact that those vehicles are not in widespread use.

It would be virtually impossible for that vehicle to meet modern standards for many many reasons…the first of which is compression and the use of the choke upon startup…In fact I can smell that 20’s tailpipe Raw Fuel smell as I type this.

Today’s vehicles “Cheat” at startup… Yes even our cars need a sort of Cold Start Choke…tho we have lost the choke cable long ago…the engine still needs more fuel when cold… To offset this? We inject high speed Atmospheric Air into the head or intake, sometimes into the exhaust system directly (Remember 80’s Air Pumps?)…thusly diluting tailpipe emissions till the Cat and engine reach “Stoich” and can then scrub the system using heat and a leaner fuel mix…but until then? Our tailpipes are quite “dirty” for a few minutes…its a fact of life and physics really…its difficult to have it both ways…Clean as a Hot engine upon startup is more trouble than its worth methinks…maybe possible but at what cost?

Does this make any sense or am I rambling as you all know I am wont to do… Haha

Blackbird

66

In the 1920’s, all engines had low compression ratios and were of a long stroke design. With higher compression and short strokes came combustion chambers with squish areas to create turbulence. Unfortunately, this design left a lot of unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust. The squish area quenched the flame front trying to reach the gasses trapped there and the large combustion chamber surface area meant a lot heat was lost to the cooling system. Today’s designs are returning to the old long stroke engines for both better fuel economy and cleaner exhaust.
Harley Davidson motorcycle engines have always been put down as 1920’s engineering, maybe they were just ahead of their time.

67

Engine designers figure out what stroke numbers will be when in the design phase… Most of todays engines are a “Square” configuration…where bore and stroke equal each other. Depending upon what the engine is going to power determines whether or not to change those numbers.

Ive had Many a Toyota 20R variant engine… Those in the 20RE form were low compression and long stroke 4 cylinder configs. The engine was designed from the get go for “Truck Use” Which meant…low revving…and long stroke…they made and still make great engines for a small truck… Stone Reliable with plenty of Torque…

If you tell a designer the bore and stroke numbers…he will be able to rattle of a list of that engines characteristics for you… They have this stuff in mind in the design phase.

Blackbird

68

@EdFrugal Yes, there is a genuine water crisis developing in the South West. Reservoir levels have dropped 20 feet and groundwater aquafers are being depleted rapidly. A lawn with green grass is becoming a luxury. Astro turf for lawns is selling well in Las Vegas.

California is already talking about desalination plants like they have in the Middle East and North Africa. Those work fine but consume energy.

In the Middle East they are powered by gas and generate electric power while the exhaust does the desalinating; very efficient, but it still creates greenhouse gasses.

Retiring in Phoenix may be expensive in the long run.

The National Geographic has done some excellent articles on this subject.

69

“The National Geographic has done some excellent articles on this subject.”

…but now that Rupert Murdoch owns National Geographic, you should anticipate that the magazine’s attention to environmental issues will decrease to a major extent.

70

How about desalination plants run by solar power? When the sun is shinin’, you make more water than you need and pump the extra back into the aquifer for use on cloudy days… . guess that makes too much sense. . . they’ll spend the next 30 years trying to get all the necessary permits. . .

Rupert Murdoch owns National Geographic?! But really, isn’t about 80 - 90 % of the “media” all owned by the same 3 or 4 giant corporations (who all have agendas)? Everything else seems to be dummies talking to other dummies on the internet, spreading various right-wing and left-wing conspiracy theories. Sometimes you don’t know what to believe anymore. . .

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@irlandes…Sorry, confused your post when I read it. Somehow, I turned “car from the '20s” into “car from 20 years ago.”

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@Docnick Yeah, which is why I cringe whenever I see these “upstart” kids going on about how “green” hydroelectric is! You realize, we came within a hair’s bredth of submerging the Grand Canyon? (If we didn’t have Theo Roosevelt as president, the GC probably would be underwater today.)

I’d sooner risk raising the global temperature, in the future, than destroying the ecology of the desert SW, today…

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@EdFrugal Yes, it’s possible to run those plants with sunshine. But it would cover a large amount of desert and need monumental batteries for night time operation. So, it will be a while before that happens, especially when the world is chockfull of cheap natural gas.

All this gas in the Middle East used to be just flared (burned off) until the president of Bechtel (a US engineering firm) convinced the Saudi government that it could be used as a petrochemical feedstock and to generate electricity!

74

California may have to choose between people and agriculture some day. Since ag uses the majority of the water for crops, milk production, and cattle there is not enough right now for both. More riots in the street to come.

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@Bing Agree! Agriculture based on desalinated water would not be competitive. In Israel, they use drip irrigation with perforated hoses placed along the plants and only the roots are sparsely watered. This cuts water usage to a fraction of normal sprinkler irrigation, which is very wasteful.

Another way to produce crops is by hydroponics, but again, quite expensive and nutrients have to be added to get balanced food values.

76

" But really, isn’t about 80 - 90 % of the “media” all owned by the same 3 or 4 giant corporations?’

More or less, that has been the case for quite a while. However, National Geographic was always the independent–and ultimately intellectual–“outlier”.

Now, NG is more likely to try to “out-lie” other publications as a result of being bought by the biggest humbug of them all, Rupert Murdoch.

77

No more beating around the bush. Tell us how you really feel.

78
Honda Blackbird Engine designers figure out what stroke numbers will be when in the design phase... Most of todays engines are a "Square" configuration....where bore and stroke equal each other. Depending upon what the engine is going to power determines whether or not to change those numbers.

Ive had Many a Toyota 20R variant engine… Those in the 20RE form were low compression and long stroke 4 cylinder configs. The engine was designed from the get go for “Truck Use” Which meant…low revving…and long stroke…they made and still make great engines for a small truck… Stone Reliable with plenty of Torque…

If you tell a designer the bore and stroke numbers…he will be able to rattle of a list of that engines characteristics for you… They have this stuff in mind in the design phase.

There are also short stroke engines that totally defy the stereotype of a short stroke engine, being torquey and all that. Port size and cam timing have a lot to do with that.
Another reason the short stroke engine was used so extensively during the 60’s and 70’s was styling. They needed compact engines that fit under those low hoods that cars had during that era. Similarly, the BMW boxer twins and the boxer fours and sixes used in small airplanes had short stroke engines for the same reason, a compact engine that fit inside an airplane’s cowl.
For example, the Lycoming O-540 engine. Bore 5.125" Stroke 4.375"

79

I need to issue an apology / correction. I was browsing / reading some threads earlier today on my phone and I apparently flagged / disagreed with some random posts by accident, swiping my finger on the screen to scroll through the posts (the buttons are so close together on the phone screen). I think I’ve corrected them, but if I missed any, please let me know. . .

I’m not sure if I’ve done this before or not, I didn’t realize the touch screen was so sensitive. . .

80

I would have to agree with you BLE There are ways to coax more torque out of any engine…crank weight is one of them… Turbo’s… Number of valves per cyl is another…of course there are ways round it. Kinda what engineering is all about really… Solving problems or tailoring an engine to do what you want it to do.

My 1.8 liter 4 cyl in my GTi is pushing out almost 300 Hp and Torque… Stock was 180Hp

Plenty of work arounds to Taylor the engine…

Blackbird