# Michael Moore On General Motors **URL:** \ **Category:** Maintenance/Repairs\ **Created:** [June 1, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294 "2009-06-01T19:48:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Caddyman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/caddyman/32/23_2.png) [@Caddyman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Caddyman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/1 "2009-06-01T19:48:29Z")
The kid from Flint Michigan has some interesting things to say… [http://www…php?id=248](http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=248) ---
**Author:** ![FoDaddy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/fodaddy/32/717_2.png) [@FoDaddy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/FoDaddy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/2 "2009-06-01T20:12:33Z")
Of course he’s only telling you one side of the story. Nice of him to include this gem; “So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company’s body not yet cold, and I find myself filled with – dare I say it – joy. It is not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with.” So he’s saying the people are responsible for their individual actions? It’s statements like that the in my eyes shoot Mr. Moore’s credibility to near zero. Then we have this nugget; “The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can, and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it bone dry” Weren’t we definitely going to run out of oil around 1977 or so? I do agree that this country could benefit greatly from high speed rail. And now would be as good a time as any to start, Since our president is playing loose and fast with our tax dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Roadrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@Roadrunner](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Roadrunner)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/3 "2009-06-01T20:31:13Z")
While I don’t like to see people out of work, I am totally against throwing dollar after dollar down the tube. That’s just beating a dead horse. I am most emphatically not pleased about being forced into being a part owner (my tax dollars) of ANY auto company. Say what you will about Moore, he does have some good ideas. For one: Build bullet trains for use ALL the way across the country. We need this kind of thinking (AND doing) up here in Canada too. Another point is oil will NOT last forever. If it does, there’s a good chance none of us will be around to see it. I figure I MAY have twenty years left on this planet (if someone doesn’t blow it up) and I just want to spend the time peacefully and hopefully, healthily. ---
**Author:** ![Ron-man](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/ron-man/32/739_2.png) [@Ron-man](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Ron-man)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/4 "2009-06-01T20:52:19Z")
You have to admit that when unemployment goes up, you see increases of divorce, alcoholism, drug addiction, and homelessness. I don’t think Moore understands that this is the natural evolution of a company going international. He just sees the devastation left behind and it makes his heart bleed. It shouldn’t take a bleeding heart to feel for people who lost their jobs. Yes, we have control of our individual actions, but only until we have nothing else to lose. ---
**Author:** ![FoDaddy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/fodaddy/32/717_2.png) [@FoDaddy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/FoDaddy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/5 "2009-06-01T21:33:06Z")
He also seems to be placing the blame squarely on the GM execs. Who,while certainly having blood on their hands (probably the majority of the blood if we’re honest). The unions are by no means innocent. They we able to convince people that largely unskilled manual labor was worth $40-$50 an hour. Turns out you can build high quality cars without having to pay union wages, as Honda, Toyota, and Nissan proved. If GM didn’t have so much in way of expenses, they could at least undercut the competition in price, even if their cars weren’t as great. ---
**Author:** ![Scudder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scudder](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scudder)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/6 "2009-06-01T22:26:53Z")
Moore is a cretin. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Tester](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/tester/32/15976_2.png) [@Tester](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Tester)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/7 "2009-06-01T22:33:47Z")
More on the GM failure. > **[After 101 years, why GM failed](https://www.aol.com/2009/05/31/after-101-years-why-gm-failed/)** > > General Motors (GM) was founded in September of 1908. On June 1, 2009, at 8 a.m. -- almost 101 years later -- it ceased to exist, and control was handed over to turnaround executive Al Koch. Thanks Tester ---
**Author:** ![waterboy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/waterboy/32/764_2.png) [@waterboy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/waterboy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/8 "2009-06-01T22:43:16Z")
I have a minimal consensus with his opinions at the beginning but find myself reviling his conclusions ---
**Author:** ![Caddyman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/caddyman/32/23_2.png) [@Caddyman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Caddyman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/9 "2009-06-01T23:18:37Z")
I started this thread on the “General Discussions” board where it belongs, but it wound up here… Factoids: GM’s labor and benefit cost is now about $50/hour. The “Transplant” companies that build cars in the U.S. with non-union labor book their labor cost at $45/hr Labor cost amounts to less than 10% of the cost to build a car, even GM’s labor costs…Based on these facts, it’s hard to lay GM’s failure at the feet of the UAW. Lets not forget Ford, working under the same UAW contracts, has not declared bankruptcy or taken any government hand-outs… ---
**Author:** ![waterboy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/waterboy/32/764_2.png) [@waterboy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/waterboy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/10 "2009-06-01T23:26:10Z")
Just out of curiosity, what is a ceo hourly salery? ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/30_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/11 "2009-06-01T23:37:22Z")
No matter what you might think of Roger Moore’s politics or his recent comments on GM, it is a good idea to revisit one of his earliest films, Roger and Me. While the film was done for maximum emotional impact at the expense of total accuracy, his overall impressions of GM’s decision-making process has proved to be rather prescient. You really can perceive the beginnings of GM’s present condition from viewing this “old” film of Moore’s. I really think that Roger Smith (the “Roger” of the film’s title) set the pattern that led to the present disasterous situation for GM. ---
**Author:** ![FoDaddy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/fodaddy/32/717_2.png) [@FoDaddy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/FoDaddy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/12 "2009-06-01T23:42:02Z")
Do those labor rates take into the account the pensions and health care that GM (and other automakers) must provide? ---
**Author:** ![AlanY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@AlanY](https://community.cartalk.com/u/AlanY)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/13 "2009-06-01T23:58:09Z")
Of course, Roger Moore is an actor in films such as the James Bond series and the old “The Saint” TV series. Michael Moore is the film maker in question. ---
**Author:** ![waterboy](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/waterboy/32/764_2.png) [@waterboy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/waterboy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/14 "2009-06-02T01:03:40Z")
General Motors Corp (GM.N) Chief Executive Rick Wagoner’s salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million, mainly due to option grants, according to a proxy filed on Friday. at 40 hours a week for 52 weeks no vacation pay that is 15.7 mil /52, that is 301,923.077 per week, divided by 40 hours per week, that equals 7,548.07 per hour, and you thought the unions were the problem? ---
**Author:** ![meaneyedcatz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/meaneyedcatz/32/692_2.png) [@meaneyedcatz](https://community.cartalk.com/u/meaneyedcatz)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/15 "2009-06-02T03:08:36Z")
Michael Moore is a useless bag of pus. ---
**Author:** ![Caddyman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/caddyman/32/23_2.png) [@Caddyman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Caddyman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/16 "2009-06-02T03:22:39Z")
Yes, health care and other benefits are included. Pensions, probably not… When it comes to CEO pay, GM’s brass are pikers. The CEO of Encana, a Canadian natural gas company, pays himself $150 million a year with no complaints from the Board or investors. He is by no means alone at this pay level… ---
**Author:** ![texases](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/texases/32/862_2.png) [@texases](https://community.cartalk.com/u/texases)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/17 "2009-06-02T03:26:27Z")
So MM is happy that tens of thousands of Americans are out of work? What a jerk! ---
**Author:** ![Caddyman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/caddyman/32/23_2.png) [@Caddyman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Caddyman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/18 "2009-06-02T03:27:41Z")
Moore has some rough edges, but his work brings to light things that would never see the light of day otherwise… ---
**Author:** ![Caddyman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/caddyman/32/23_2.png) [@Caddyman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Caddyman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/19 "2009-06-02T03:32:32Z")
This is what he said: "So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company’s body not yet cold, and I find myself filled with – dare I say it – joy. It is not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with. Nor do I, obviously, claim any joy in knowing that 21,000 more GM workers will be told that they, too, are without a job. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://community.cartalk.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294/20 "2009-06-02T04:02:55Z")
I’ve always contended that GM solved most of their problems with manufacturing and design in the late-80’s to early-90’s, but that they’ve never been able to overcome their image problem among vast portions of the market. As valid as most of the criticisms Moore made in the movie were, I think that movie was a big part of what cemented a lot of people’s opinion of GM and ruined any chance of them ever really making a comeback. Hopefully this high profile restructuring/bankruptcy/whatever will convince people that the old GM is finally dead. [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/michael-moore-on-general-motors/31294.md?page=2)