Low profile tires

General Discussion
21

@dagosa, I said “the jury is still out” because in my mind it’s not an “if” but a “when” someone has a blown tire and drives off the side of a bridge, then claims ignorance and starts pointing fingers. “XYZ Garage just put my tires on and they said I didn’t need that monitor system.” It’s sad that we have to spend as much time contemplating legalities as we do actually fixing the cars, but in the same vein that tire shops will no longer install only 2 snow tires, they may choose to not install wheels without sensors.

My stance is still the same. If there is a warning light on that shouldn’t be, your car is not functioning properly and needs repair, and I don’t think you can fault a shop for not wanting to perform a service that results in your car leaving in worse shape than when it came in.

People are all over the board on this, some love it, some hate it, some don’t care. I had a guy come in with flat, had a leak at the stem that required replacing the sensor. He actually wanted me to replace the other 3 proactively.

Personally, I think we could do away with TPMS all together, but as long as it’s here I’ll do my best to keep them working right.

22

@dagosa:

"the jury is out" is a scare tactic and has nothing to do with the discussion. It is a state prerogative.

I wish you luck…you’ll need it. I have pointed out, repeatedly, very basic distinctions between federal and state legal authority (Commerce Clause 101 stuff) and to always read the “applicability” paragraph in any legal document to see if it even applies to you…I got tons of flack.

You have a more prudent rep here than I, so maybe you’ll get more traction here.

23

There are only 2 things I can add.
One is that any smaller wheel rim size being used should be verifed to clear the brake caliper and/or rotor and any tire should be cleared as to hitting the inner fender.

Personally, I don’t care for TPMS but if the vehicle has it then it should be kept intact. There’s also the onerous issue of what happens if it is disabled, someone blows a tire due to a reason that has nothing to do with the TPMS, and becomes injured or killed; or injures or kills others? There are plenty of attorneys who would jump all over a case like this.

That lowly tire patch on a Ford van I believe it was led to a multi-million dollar judgement against several corporations and it was never even known that the patch had anything to do with the crash.

24

In today’s society where people sue fast food restaurants because they spoiled hot coffee on themselves… and win the lawsuits… I doubt if any shop would allow it’s bead busters to install new tires without the pressure sensors. Tort laws are appallingly bad in most states.

25

I guess we forget what it was like before TRMS. The streets and highways were not littered with crashing cars because of blown out tires.

@same "I doubt that any shop would allow…install new tires without pressure sensors. " That just isn’t the case in our state. I shopped at four different tire shops to get installation prices on my new winter tires and none of three pressured me into installing sensor in my rims. Tire Warehouse, the Toyota dealership and Sullivan tire all made no mention of having them installed when I priced them. In each case I asked what my obligation was (I already knew of course). They each just said, “it’s optional” or "it’s whatever you want to do. " Only at Townfair Tire did they try to insist that I have it done, saying, It was not optional. They lied to me.

So, you are mistaken that everyone installs them. I would bet money what happened to me in my state happens in every state that does not mandate indirect TPMS be install on all rims for state inspection. No one is held liable for they not being in your car. If the car is found deficient in tire pressure, it could be a factor in suits I am sure. But, that has nothing to do with whether there was a system working.

Our state is very progressive in inspections and car safety and pollution and follows states like California in these issues. It does not however believe TPMS systems are ready for inspection. According to inspectors, it’s too much of a financial burden considering the lack of effectiveness in actually insuring cars have proper air pressure. Our state and others are rational on this issue.

They are only safer when people actually do something about the little flashing light. These same people that do routinely do something for themselves also have a tire gauge. TPMS have been around for years and there is no rash of law suits in states that do not mandate them. You guys are just making this stuff up.

“Tort laws are appalling bad ?” they are bad because in most states, corporations are over protected by corporate law from being held accountable, and not because suits are actually being won. That is another fallacy !

26

“Only at Townfair Tire did they try to insist that I have it done, saying, It was not optional. They lied to me.”

That depends. They may have said that you needed to install sensors in your snow wheels, and they are right, if that is their policy for doing business with you. In business parlance, they were seeing if you are qualified to be one of their customers. In other words, they are saying “You may not care if your car is complete and working properly, but we sure do.”

Years ago when alternators had external voltage regulators mounted on the firewall or fender, many shops would not replace a failed alternator without installing a new regulator as well. As a young kid I worked for a guy like that, he’d flat out refuse the job and send you on your way. This Townfair Tire may just be trying to pad the bill, or they may have enough pride in their work that they won’t do a job unless it’s complete and 100%.

Some shops offer a prime rib dinner, some consumers just want a cheeseburger. One isn’t necessarily better than the other, just different.

I actually agree with you about lawsuits and responsibility. I have also been on the receiving end of silly and baseless court actions, and I can guarantee you that any measures I take (like insisting on installing TPMS sensors) will cost me less in the long run than the time and aggravation of that one idiot who holds me responsible for his flat tire.

27

@meanjoe75fan
I get where you are coming from. Now, get where I am coming from. Not telling people they need not have them installed depending upon the state they are in is withholding information they should have. Couch it anyway you like for you, but not telling them is not right for me. You can add your opinion on the matter which is fine and welcome, but I think we should include all options and let OP make their own decision.

28

@asemaster
I was there, you were not. They lied to me. Let me say this, the salesman lied to me. I don’t argue with salsmen. I don’t offend them with the truth or tell them they are wrong. I walk. If you can’t trust them on one issue, it’s tough for me to trust them on others. Let me repeat, I asked all tire sellers what MY obligations were to have it installed. They (Townfair) said that I NEEDED to have it done. Maybe he didn’t undedstand what I meant. That’s not my problem. He didn’t stipulate it was a business practice. Hiding the truth is a lie. All other businesses were truthful. They all said it was optional for the customer. One of them got my sale, Townfair did not. If it was because he did not understand, I don’t care. My point is to @Same, dealers routinely install them without fear being sued…even the dealer does…for me amny times . For years, they rotated my tires without these sensors on, and just informed me what to expect. (light will go on) They said nothing more ! BTW, the three places that said they were optional, all do state inspections.

29

Well Folks let me add this,if the installer happens to deatroy the valve core when removing the caps they send you on your way and of course they dont have a replacement in stock(told me there are more 40 varietys) of course the installer said the aftermarker metal valve caps was the reason He twisted the stem off(didnt look to me like He tried too hard to get it off) and then there was the additional cost of having the sensor installed and the tire was already broke down[ and its still not calibrated] I think the system should be opitional and I consider it a joke like a lot of these other expensive dubious benefit systems designed to save the driver from themselves{its time to start training the driver}-Kevin

30

@kevin
What state do you live in ? Everyone seems to agree that they are nearly useless but for some reason, they want them installed when they may not have to.
http://www.thetpmsforum.com/showthread.php?103-TPMS-Function-and-vehicle-inspection

31

The problem comes should there be an accident with a fatality and the accident investigation determines that the wheels were installed without the pressure sensor. That can trigger multimillion dollar lawsuits and discovery is highly likely to determine who installed the tires. Whether the lack of the pressure sensors was determined to be the primary cause of the accident or not, the scenario is a tort lawyer’s dream.

I believe Dag, but I’m surprised he was able to find so many shops willing to do this.

I personally dislike Town Fair Tire, as they have their shops set up so that the work being done is hidden from the customers and they do alignments and chassis inspections with every installation looking for more revenue without informing the customer. I found this out the hard way. But I can appreciate their policy on this issue.

32

The TPMS both direct and indirect have been in cars for more then a decade, generally causing as many problems financially as they proport to solve and yet. Where is the cascade of law suits by those involved in all the heinous accidents caused by exploding tires ? I have yet to hear or see all of these “tort lawyers” sucking the wealth from corporate America through these threatened law suits.

Instead, TPMS systems have subtliy created a guranteed income that keeps people piling money into a non full functioning system that makes corporations more wealthy by depriving their customers of knowledge; all to keep a light from blinking, even when the driver does maintain adaquate tire pressure. Where is our right to refuse these worthless systems ? Our right exists in part in the knowledge that it’s still our choice in many states. And , no one has ever been sued for not putting when in when they did not have to. it’s been more then a decade…Where are the suits ? I DONOT appreciate Townfair’s policy when it comes to deceit. I do applaud the others for being informative and respectful of their customers rights and choices. Long live full disclosure !

33

Sigh, forget it Dag.
You’re right, I’m wrong. Let it go.

34

With no Federal requirement we have to suffer from fear of litigation. Individual businesses will not chance being sued. It is a sad state of affairs. I have had this happen with confusion with firearm purchase laws. In the early 1980s I wanted to purchase a .22 rim fire revolver. It required a 5 day waiting period which was correct. I later wanted to purchase a Walker Colt replica. from the same store. They required the same 5 day waiting period even though it was a non fixed ammunition firearm which was exempt from the federal law. They gave me their song and dance that their store policy did not allow exemptions of federal law. Very much like TPMS.

35

I’m going to really bother some people with these comments

I think TPMS is a great thing

If a driver specifically requests the system to be disabled, or specifically asks that it be NOT repaired, that guy has absolutely no right to blame anybody for their tragic tire blowout 2 months later . . . because every owner’s manual says you have to regularly check the tire pressures

I’m a civil service fleet mechanic. If I’m doing a service, and the TPMS light is lit, I don’t release the vehicle until the system is working properly again. No exceptions. My supervisor and the higher ups have no problem with this approach, even though it sometimes means the truck won’t be done that day.

36

I have to agree with db4690.
Many people seem to think that the TPMS is supposed to substitute for regular checking of tire pressure with a hand-held pressure gauge, when it was not intended for that purpose.

The intent of the TPMS is to alert drivers to sudden catastrophic pressure loss in their tire(s), so unless somebody plans to stop his car every couple of miles on the highway in order to do a pressure check, the TPMS is actually helpful in preventing some types of accidents.

With or without having TPMS, a responsible driver will check his/her tire pressure at least every few weeks, but, as we all know, many drivers are not responsible folks and–unfortunately–they will rely on the TPMS instead of doing regular pressure checks. However, misuse of a device does not mean that the device is not inherently a good idea.

Can you live w/o TPMS?
Sure!
Just as we lived w/o seatbelts, or padded dashes, or airbags for many decades.
However, how many of us would opt to forego those features at this point?

Every argument against the mandating of TPMS is simply an echo of arguments that were used years ago regarding other safety features. Many of those old arguments actually originated with auto companies that didn’t have the latest features, such as the hydraulic brakes that Chrysler introduced to the popularly-priced field in the '30s.

Small town newspapers in those days occasionally featured articles about people who were killed when “their car stopped too quickly, due to hydraulic brakes”, but those articles were actually planted by hacks employed by GM, Ford, etc, simply because they did not yet have 4 wheel hydraulic brakes on their lower-priced cars. The articles always lacked specifics, and the ones that appeared in eastern newspapers always mentioned car wrecks in the far western part of the US, and–you guessed it–the newspapers in the West mentioned car wrecks that took place “back East”.

Years ago, my elderly aunt proudly showed me how she had cut the seatbelts out of her Chevy Malibu. I asked her why she had done that, and her answer–after ranting about seatbelts being a “government conspiracy”-- was, “If my hands were badly injured in an accident, I wouldn’t be able to remove the seatbelt, and I would be trapped in the car!” When I pointed out that badly injured hands would also likely prevent her from being able to open the car door, thereby trapping her anyway, she was…not happy…and accused me of being impertinent.
I guess that my rational thinking was threatening to her…

I’m sure that, if my aunt was alive today, she would consider TPMS to be just as much of “a government conspiracy” as were her hated seatbelts.

37

Irresponsible drivers or not, nanny state or not, government intrusion or not, and the hierarchy of federal requirements vs. state safety inspections or not, it all boils down to one thing.

There’s broken and there’s fixed.

TPMS light on dash=broken.
TPMS light not on=fixed.

Some people will drive broken cars, some won’t.
Some shops will break a car, some won’t.

38

In the days before self serve replaced attendants and convenience stores replaced service bays tire pressure was checked every time a customer re-fueled.

39

TPMS IMO, are not in the same catagory as seatbelts or airbags. There are a system fraught with faults and totally dependent upon compliance of the driver. If the system was true workable, a tire pressure read out for each tire should be on display. Having the light go on with no other information with five tires to monitor including a spare which on some cars, requires you to lay on your back, drop or loosen the wheel from it’s mount to access the the stem, does little to ensure compliance when ever a light goes on. I don’t mind but many do and without a specific indication on that tire, it won’t get done. The driver is responsible for the air pressure in each and every tire. Until they have a RELIABLE system that gives you a readout on each and every tire, I am against them.

I have always had a tire pressure “fedish” and check them constantly. For some reason, excluding winter rims, the light on one car has failed to work consistently for nine years. Some times it does, some times it doesn’t. It is too expensive to maintain with the technology at present. $59 to $159 EACH replace ment cost, not including labor is too expensive compared to a tire pressure guage.

40

@‌acemaster

I know we will continually disagree about the politics of this matter. It is not a federal requirement for States to make it an inspectable device, as there are other components on cars that are mandated to be included in their construction but not mandated to subsequent state inspection (tire size for one) and yet we don’t give a second thought to not having them as delivered by the dealership. Tires must comply within load ranges, equipment must be installed a certain way, hitches etc. if delivered as a new car by a dealer. Much of this stuf is not required for subsequent state inspection. I will not be convinced that these devices are any different because a tire company says they must mount them and are afraid of a law suit in a state that does not require them for inspection. This has nothing to do with having a broken car. If anything, it is an added expense on an unreliable system that may prevent people from mounting winter tires when they should. This is a big reason why our state does not now require them.