How can you say you completely disagree in one statement, and agree with me in the other…context is everything, please include all of statement.
I say stressed, you say EXTREME. (and should be driven within limits set by the owner’s manual.)
With it’s dynamically poor weight distribution, initial traction advantage not withstanding, it will always be a second class citizen to optimal handling performance, but can be safely used within limits set by owner’s manuals.
I’ll stand by this statement to the end…
BTW, rwd cars that are poor in snow, are so more because of poor weight distribution and high performance factors (including tires) than because they are rwd. FWD cars have the same and greater problems…Nearly ALL emergency vehicles that have to travel in bad weather are either 4wd of rwd, and most are rwd.
BTW, rwd cars that are poor in snow, are so more because of poor weight distribution and high performance factors (including tires) than because they are rwd. FWD cars have the same and greater problems…Nearly ALL emergency vehicles that have to travel in bad weather are either 4wd of rwd, and most are rwd.
Obviously you’ve NEVER driven in snow before. It’s NOT just weight distribution that make fwd FAR FAR FAR superior then RWD in snow. For one…RWD is LOCKED in one position in snow. You get 4-5" of snow and get stuck…in RWD you dig yourself a rut and can’t get out…With FWD all you have to do is turn the wheels and you’re no longer in that rut.
The ONLY reason the emergency vehicles are RWD is because of their SIZE…NOT because they’re superior in driving in snow. The town I grew up in…switched many of the police vehicles over to fwd years ago because of the amount of snow we get (300" + year).
Let me add my 2 cents worth to this “discussion”. I used to race on short, round tracks back in my younger days. The rear wheel drive cars are easier to learn to control. The front wheel drive cars are not. If FWD vehicles are driven in a normal matter they are “fairly” safe. They react differently than RWD vehicles when they get into an emergency situation. This is why NASCAR prohibits front wheel drive vehicles from racing. If you see any FWD vehicle on the track it is modified to run RWD. They learned years ago that the FWD vehicles crashed when trying to drive around the track at racing speeds. I like FWD but I would never race one because I like breathing.
“he town I grew up in…switched many of the police vehicles over to fwd years ago because of the amount of snow we get (300” + year)."
There is no way that we are going to agree, as my experience is different than yours,
By why you continually take me out of context, I don’t know. Please re read my final statement. I feel FWD cars are safe vehicles used within owners manual directives. RWD vehicles can be specialized more easily, resulting a vehicle with greater performance parameters than is possible with fwd vehicles when demands are greater. (that’s greater than those you would normally run into with a family sedan)How much has to be spelled out, I don’t know.
That’s why you don’t see vehicles with more demanding handling, towing, and weight carrying, fwd. That’s more demanding than the average fwd car can safely handle…how could anyone with driving awareness disagree with that…
That a PD goes to fwd car has as much to do with economics and vehicle expectations than ANYTHING…It’s no longer a safe high pursuit car with fwd;they must feel it isn’t as necessary (I’m a retired cop, we went through this with our town fathers a thousand times) A rwd cruiser with limited slip, decent clearance and weight in the trunk with emergency gear and snow tires was much better than fwd overall for our purposes. You pay the taxes, you want fwd; when we were on patrol, we wanted specialized rwd.
Just so you know where I’m coming from and I have a little experience with snow on a mountain in Maine. This is my 1.5 mile “driveway”. I also plow snow with trucks, blow snow with tractors, ski snow yada yada…and no one survives here with fwd in the winter…yet I can get in and out on snow in rwd only easily.
Do you go around driving your car at 30-40mph ABOVE the speed limit…or squeal the tires while taking corners…or slam on the brakes when you stop???
Not normally, but occasionally. If a car can handle that stressful driving, I found them safer at lower speeds and in emergency maneuvers. A rwd BMW or Miata has much better emergency maneuver ability than any fwd car I can think of. Heck, my 2wd extended cab v6 Toyota PU with 300 lbs of tube sand in the back and LS handle better than wife’s Accord, on dry and snow with comparable tires.
Now the Subaru she later got was in a different league than either.
Heck, my 2wd extended cab v6 Toyota PU with 300 lbs of tube sand in the back handle better than wife’s Accord
BULL…Owned 2 different accords…Sorry but no way no how can the Toyota PU handle better then the Accord…NOT going to happen. Sure a BMW RWD car can handle better then the Accord…SO WHAT…If you drive the Accord to the limits that it becomes UNSAFE…Please turn in your drivers license and get the h*ll off of my streets. You are a HAZARD to the public and shouldn’t be driving in it. Keep the drag racing to the track and OFF the street. I think you’ve been watching to many Vin Diesel movies.
They react differently than RWD vehicles when they get into an emergency situation. This is why NASCAR prohibits front wheel drive vehicles from racing
NASCAR prohibits them from racing because those cars are driven to the EXTREME…Do you drive that way on the street. I’ve been in several emergency situations while driving fwd vehicles…NEVER a problem. But then again I’m NOT driving like a 17yo who just got his drivers license either.
It’s too bad you can’t keep your tone more civil and less accusatory. Being defensive is no excuse for snide remarks. As a fellow NE, I would think you’d be more accepting and not keep Cherry picking points you can make snide remarks about. I’m disappointed. That I am a safe driver and confine high speed driving to my racing experience being a cop and had to do training on a closed course as well as drive aggressively in pursuit seems to mean nothing. I’ll take this experience with me in your other posts.
Regards
Years ago, the late Tom McCahill was test driving a Renault (it was either the R-8 or the R-10, whatever vehicle was the successor to the Dauphine) and rolled it on the test track. This Renault was a rear engine RWD drive car that had considerable oversteer. At any rate, Tom came out uninjured, but it shows that even experienced test drivers can get into trouble.
You keep saying that it’s the FWD car that’s the problem…
It’s NOT…it’s the way people drive that’s the problem.
ANY fwd vehicle can handle any situation as well as a rwd vehicle…except in EXTREME conditions. If someone is driving at those EXTREME conditions they are endangering the public. That’s a FACT. That doesn’t mean you have to drive at 55…or take an on-ramp at 30. In fact you can probably drive very safe at 80+…and if an emergency comes up the fwd will handle as well as rwd. It’s when you drive at 90 or 100 or take an on-ramp at 70…Yup a rwd can probably handle that better then a fwd vehilcle…but as I said…“SO WHAT”. You should NEVER be driving that fast…If you are then you’re endangering everyone else on the road.
As for driving aggressively during a pursuit…do I have to tell you how many people have been KILLED by police who lost control of their car during a Pursuit. One cop in Nashua NH some 15 years ago finally got booted off the force after his SECOND fatality while in a pursuit. If you’re pursuing a car that’s doing 100mph…what we the public now have are TWO 3000lb cars endangering the public instead of ONE.
RWD vehicles can be specialized more easily, resulting a vehicle with greater performance parameters than is possible with fwd vehicles when demands are greater
I’m NOT taking you out of context…The point I’m making which you don’t seem to get…
ANY DECENT fwd vehicle driving to near it’s MAX safety limit…is far far far too aggressive/fast for the streets…It’s far far far too fast for ANY one to be driving …no matter what car you drive…even if it’s a Formula-ONE.
A rwd cruiser with limited slip, decent clearance and weight in the trunk with emergency gear and snow tires was much better than fwd overall for our purposes.
Probably…but that doesn’t mean that rwd is as good in snow as fwd…IT’S NOT…Here in NE it’s not an issue…we don’t get that much snow…Upstate NY or Michigan where they get 5-10 times the amount of snow as Boston it’s an issue.
Just so you know where I’m coming from and I have a little experience with snow on a mountain in Maine. This is my 1.5 mile “driveway”. I also plow snow with trucks, blow snow with tractors, ski snow yada yada…and no one survives here with fwd in the winter…yet I can get in and out on snow in rwd only easily.
I’ll take you to the road where I lived when I learned to drive…Live on that road for just ONE winter in a rwd vehicle…I GUARANTEE you’ll be walking home several times a year as your car went off in snow bank or because you couldn’t make it up one of the 3-4 hills. The ONLY people who could safely travel that road are people in fwd with GOOD 4 SNOW TIRES…or AWD or 4wd…I can’t tell you how many times I drove down that road in my 4wd F-150 and seeing all the rwd vehicles off the road…I know of no-one with a rwd vehicle who was ever able to make those hills…and these people had many many years of snow experience.
I congratulate on a little civility the post. This quote shows that you are in complete agreement with me and why you continue with the cherry picking out of context, I don’t know.
ANY fwd vehicle can handle any situation as well as a rwd vehicle…except in EXTREME conditions.
If Person A drives his FWD vehicle at speed X which makes his car UNSAFE…then Person B driving his RWD vehicle should NOT be driving at speed X either. What ever speed the fwd vehicle is driving at is also too fast for the rwd vehicle.
The other thing I never saw in any of you data is 4-wheel independent suspension. Some fwd vehicles have 4-wheel independent suspension (like the Accord)…while others don’t. It makes a HUGE difference in handling.
What part of sensory input does a driver use to determine x
Most the input comes from your hands and eyes, or from the front of the vehicle so a vehicle that weights 1600lb on the front will not feel as secure as a vehicle that weights 1900lb on the front and yet if they both are 3000lb vehicles which one will let go on the rear first and where does the sensory input for back traction come from?
Because we all “obey” speed limits can we still be traveling too fast for conditions. Can’t these conditions unexpectedly occur and the car that handled the best at Y, a “high speed” unacceptable conditions, handle better at x when it suddenly becomes lower ?
Would a Miata for example, evade a child that darted out, more safely at 55 mph than a Camry ?
The Miata being the car that could make a maneuver at an illegal 80 mph that a Camry couldn’t. Does the capability at higher speeds enhance the capability at lower ?
The Miata weighs 1249lb front and 1102 lb rear. The Camry weighs 1860lb front and 1290lb rear. In heavy rain the Camry driver would not detect hydro planning till a higher speed and yet the rear of the Camry would hydro plane at about the same speed as the Miata