George, you are trying to go down that rabbit hole again, about less for less money… Been there got that t-shirt…
And yes right now I hate electronic controlled transmissions, mainly cause I don’t feel like pulling the trans and going inside of it to replace a wiring harness…
But then again, I hopped in the Infinity today for my monthly pain Dr visit and really enjoyed the benefits of the automatic climate control, jamming out to Megadeth on the kicking OEM Bose system, how well the car handles with the low pro 17’s, soft leather seats, power window so I could let the 120F+ air out before rolling them back up while driving through the curvy roads and not dying from the heat…
So as much as I hate all the electronic crap on that car, it sure does put a smile on my face driving it… In the end money well spent…
Yes, similar. The car was dark gray. The seats were white vinyl with black cloth inserts. Very comfortable. I drove from DC to Greenville, SC once in it. My mother insisted that I drive the whole way since I just got my license. The highway in NC had a high crown and I kept drifting to the right until I got the hang of constantly driving slightly uphill.
That’s my thinking as well. As a diy’er, I have no problem at all with the car having a bevy of computers running the show; but in return, so that I can do my own maintenance & repairs, I want access to all the manufacturer’s diagnosis & repair functionality. Either as a separate scan tool or as part of the car’s user interface. It wouldn’t have to handle every model/year/config like the factory scan tool does; it’s fine if it only works for my own particular car.
Vehicle manufactures began using body computers in the 1980’s and most cars had a BCM by the late 1990’s.
A failing body computer wouldn’t be my first suspicion in this case, it would be my last. More common failures are found with connectors, circuit boards and power supplied to the circuits.
Most members on this message board have between 5 and 25 computers on their vehicles, and no scan tool to access these computers other than PCM and ABS. Ironically you are the one worried about the ability to read computer data on things that very rarely fail.
The diy’er need isn’t only to read data. For example, isn’t it necessary to use the diagnostic-mode access to the car’s computer system to control the ABS valves on & off when doing a brake bleed on some cars?
Rarely fail? 500K+ Ford F150 recall announced today
I brought it up first. And I don’t care how many modules there are or how often/rarely they fail. When something goes haywire on one of my vehicles, I want access to the data/error codes/the ability to test, command functions and etc.
Of course, most people probably don’t “demand” that because they couldn’t make heads or tails of it, and wouldn’t bother to try. But that’s is all the more reason not to sit on what I consider to be MY data. Most will still “take it to the dealer service department.” What are they going to lose?
I likened it to the “right to repair” issue made most famous among farmers, but is broader than that.
No different than suspension repairs: you have to obtain the tools or rely on someone to perform the repairs for you. The vehicle manufacture didn’t provide you or myself with a ball joint press or bushing drivers, I had to buy them.
George wants each new car to come with a diagnostic scan tool, that is unreasonable.
[quote=“Nevada_545, post:28, topic:195211”] ([emphasis added by me]) No different than suspension repairs: you have to obtain the tools or rely on someone to perform the repairs for you. The vehicle manufacture didn’t provide you or myself with a ball joint press or bushing drivers, I had to buy them.
[/quote]
Is that even a serious comment? Ball joint presses vs., say, GM Tech II capabilities? Or Toyota Techstream / TIS? Or Volvo’s VIDA? Or yada yada? I’d say apples and oranges, but it’s more like apples and basketballs. Or maybe even apples and hand grenades? They are VERY DIFFERENT.
What proprietary software diagnoses or replaces a bad ball joint? Or bushing? Or bearing? Or whatever MECHANICAL thing you can check without special, proprietary software? I don’t need a Tech II or TIS to check a tie rod. And I certainly don’t need them to replace one. Are you suggesting that anyone is saying that they have some “right” to a tire pressure gauge from the manufacturer?
This convo started with possible BCM issues. This fall-out is just about the ability to read data streams/error codes from computer modules. If you want to equate that with generic things like presses and drivers, then have at it. And yeah. Full access to your own car’s computer data is very different from presses and drivers and such.
Yep, the good old days, no computer controlled vehicles, party phone lines only, long distance to call 25 miles down the road, 13" B&W TV’s, only 3 stations, people died and or disabled from disease that GenX and younger will never deal with, no indoor plumbing, Mafia, no labor laws etc etc etc…
Yeah I will take the good with the bad, I like being able to text or talk to my kids anywhere, anytime I want, I enjoy having HVAC in my house and I got to enjoy my Dad for many more good years after having cancer AND open heart surgery, and my Mom is still with us after beating cancer twice over 15 years ago…
You want to drive older cars, great, but it is also great if you want the newest greatest new gadget on the market in your vehicle… To each there own…
Sure, that’s a serious comment. I agree completely.
If you want to replace your ball joints, you will have to buy a floor jack, jack stands, air compressor and impact wrench, axle nut socket, ball joint press with appropriate adapters, in addition to all the regular hand tools you will use. These things are all available from the aftermarket for a price.
If you want to diagnose your interior lights and then replace your BCM you’ll have to buy a scan tool to access data and fault codes and set-up and configure/program your new BCM. That scan tool can be aftermarket or OEM, and the service info/software can be accessed for a small fee as well.
What’s the difference between the two?
Oh? How do you calibrate/initialize/verify your steering angle sensor after the alignment?
Yes. Thank you for the tool list. And the floor jack and stands and compressor and impact and so forth are general use/general purpose tools. I don’t have to go find my “Toyota” floor jack if it’s a Toyota. And the ball joints aren’t behind a wall of proprietary software.
We’re not all going to see eye to eye about it, and I’m fine with that. If it is interior lights due to a BCM problem, then those are MY lights and the BCM is MY BCM - and the data it contains are MY data. As it stands, cars communicate a lot of data to drivers. The error data and the like are in there. There are lots of ways to communicate those data already in the cars. That’s all I want, and I don’t think it’s weird.
Of course, these days the communication of data to drivers about their own cars - and even to their mechanics - is moving in the opposite direction. Thus growing concerns over “right to repair” issues.
That’s just making a straw man. I don’t do alignments. I take them to a shop. What does that have to do with anything? I also don’t do my own exhaust work - but it’s not because I don’t have the very generic tools to do it.
$5000? And that’s exactly the point. It’s not practical for a diy’er to purchase a tech 2 scan tool for $5000, but it is completely practical to purchase a floor jack for $150. The tech 2 scan tool costs $5000 b/c that’s what the market will bear. If they couldn’t sell any at $5000, they’d sell them for less. The parts cost is probably on the order of $15 to make them. There’s a big development cost, but that is apportioned over all of them that they sell. The more they sell, the less they can sell them for. If they sold one with every new car purchase, they could sell them for less than $100 each I’d guess; i.e. included as part of the purchase price. If the funciton was incorporated into the car’s user interface, there’d be little if any incremental cost at all to the manufacturer to provide that function, since it has to be developed anyway. There may be some after-purchase expenses incurred (mostly by the dealerships I expect) from car owners not understanding how it works and wanting an explantion how to use it. There’s also a liability expense like with every car & part the manufacturer sells.
That is an OTC product, vehicle manufactures buy their diagnostic tools (all tools) from tool manufactures. OTC tools are professional grade tools designed for daily shop use, these cost more than $15 to manufacture.
Toyota uses the Panasonic Tough Book as a foundation for their scan tools, the Tough Book is an expensive laptop computer without the Techstream software.
Much less expensive alternatives are available, but it would be very unusual to need a diagnostic scan tool to fix a dome light.
Is a diy’er & new car buyer able to purchase a less-physically robust scan tool for $150 that offers exactly the same functionality as the manufacturer’s scan tool for the car? It would also have to include all the required software for the car pre-loaded as part of the cost, or could be downloaded later without a fee. If so, I doubt there’d be many complaints about the cost. Would it allow the diy’er to set all the readiness codes to complete with a 15 minute drive?
And this is the issue. It’s just about money, not about rights. If you were offered all the software and tooling for your car for $10 nobody would complain. Once everyone understands that software is a tool exactly like a ratchet, timing light, or ball joint press it all makes sense.
“George” drives a 72 Ford. When he bought it, he was given a manual that told him what spark plugs to put in it and the specifications for dwell, and timing. But 15 years later the ball joints needed to be replaced. George now had to buy tools and supplies to do it, and he had to buy either a factory service manual, Chilton’s guide, or Motor manual that gave service procedures and specs.
Dollars aside, how is having to buy a ball joint press and a service manual different from having to buy a scan tool and software?
That’s just making a straw man. I don’t do alignments. I take them to a shop. What does that have to do with anything? I also don’t do my own exhaust work - but it’s not because I don’t have the very generic tools to do it.