@dagosa- That’s why pot should be legal and regulated just like alcohol, which never ends up in the hands of kids.
We are, as a country, moving toward 3d world status and the less fortunate can be more easily dismissed and isolated toward a developing class apartheid by demonizing all of them for the actions of the worst of them. I see a coalescing of Americans into economic castes that might soon result in de facto class apartheid. The struggle of so many to become among the most successful in their group and to own homes in isolated, gated communities where the “unclean” won’t be seen except to clean the toilets and do yard work is just too obvious here and from what I can glean from the www that is the case all across the country. And as the less fortunate coalesce into communities with ever declining infrastructure and support how often will politicians blame all financial problems on the resultant ghetto? That has been such a successful gambit for political leaders for… ever.
Rod, while I would argue that an economy this size is too large to decline into a third world country, I agree that we’re headed toward class stratification. If we stay our course there’ll be an elite class, a lower class, and those who’ve fallen into scratching out a living at the bottom. And the gated communities already exist. And yeah, th egame is to force people into ghettos and then blame them for the existance of he ghettos.
The place we disagree is in the cause and the solution.
@same
There are no shortages of dealers and distributors. There are too many poor who need the money.
Now we go from imprisonment to execution when .execution is more expensive and frankly, is not and should not be who we are when we make it standard fair. It should be seldom, rare and NEVER used as a means to create jail space. "we could go a long way toward providing jail space"
Starting to sound like Soylent Green. ;=()
@david
I 'm not smart enough to come down on one side or another relative to legalizing which drugs and which not to. IMHO, pot has other problems as a legal drug. I don’t even think cigarettes in their present form should be legal. The cigarette industry and others have made a living, legally and knowing promoting death and suffering to millions…and we want to legalize another inhalant with similar or worse pulmonary effects. http://www.oncolink.org/risk/article.cfm?c=21&id=67#.UWXgfmt5mSM
Regardless of the problems of enforcement, legalizing any controlled substance spreads it’s use. It did after prohibition for alcohol, it will for pot. That is why the simple answers, jail’m, lkill’m or legalize it are all simple ways out when the real answer is more complicated. Solutions always start with compassion, empathy and a much larger moral circle then we show now.
BTW, I don’t know of any cigarette executive who was brought up on charges of voluntary manslaughter…in the ideal world, that would send the message that needs to be sent and illustrates the real compassion we should be showing victims.
Some here might enjoy reading ‘Freakonomics’ by Dubner. One of his chapters analyzes "Why do drug dealers still live with their mom?"
http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-3/
Turns out drug dealing is like, say, selling Tupperware, with many levels, and the big money at the top. But with a very bleak outlook.
Dag, I disagree. Anyone who takes the life of another intentionally and without cause should be (a) removed from society forever, and (b) removed from the being a burden for the taxpayer forever. They should be executed. Post haste and forthwidth. At sunup tomorrow. And in many cases an injection is far too kind, better than what hey deserve.
I also disagree that execution is less expensive than imprisonment. It’s the decades of legal maneuvers and appeals that make a death sentence expensive, not he execution. And the appeals process needs an overhaul too.
Yes, post haste, forthwith, with dispatch, show no mercy and every other hyperbole that can be applied…all too often it’s the poor with inadequate council. Too often when the poor are involved,the idea of just killing, someone, anyone is what happens more often then we care admit.
http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42
I think I said execution is more expensive… " I disagree that execution is less expensive…"
If you disagree with my original statement, you may be in the minority. Billions can be saved by not executing prisoners.
The appeals process is there for a reason…it has saved innocent lives. Unless, we are amount those who say, it’s worth killing a few innocents now and then, just to get things done cheaply. For every innocent person we kill there is still a guilty person running free…is that justice ? I personally have a problem with sentencing people to death just to be expediant. Sounds like the tobacco industry.
My problem with capital punishment is that we are, guaranteed, executing some innocent people. No other human procedure is perfect, and we know that courts sure aren’t, either.
@rod
My reference says that since 2011, the hang’m high crowd would have been responsible for 17 innocents being murdered in the name of expediant justice, just since 2011.
Personally, I tend to be somewhat hard core regarding justice and the penal system but the certainty that innocent men have and will be executed as long as there is capital punishment leaves me opposing it, @dagosa. I knew a young man who was executed and he was almost certainly guilty and I knew a man who committed 2 murders and attempted a third but remained free until he died from an apparent heart attack because he had the deep pockets from dealing drugs to drag the trial out for many years. And while both those murderers were black, the black community has every right to complain for the treatment they often receive from those who carry a badge and a gun with the responsibility of protecting ALL of us. The overwhelming support for OJ Simpson by the black community at large was the result of black’s pent up rage at mistreatment by law enforcement and the judicial system. Who can blame them?
I agree @rod about OJ…but the fact remains for me , regardless of the support of the black community, with out his notoriety and money, he would have been found guilty many times over. There are a lot of black jurors who have found a black person guilty. So I still feel that money trumps all and what poor is going to hire a Johnny Cochran in a neighborhood crime. The pent up rage has and will be there any time there is perceived injustice. It was OJ 's wealth that stirred the pot. I guarantee that like public financing for elections if even the wealthy were forced to accept an overworked public defender for defense of any of his criminal activities, we would all live in a much better place. You definitely would see a lot less support of the death penalty.
No doubt, @dagosa. America has the finest system of justice that money can buy.
While I disagree with some of his argument, he does make a compelling one
Legalize all drugs and some will quit because the allure is gone, some might take it up and get addicted to it. My town has had several OD victims with heroin lately, and they did find a batch that was super concentrated that’s been distributed
I feel He is the perfect argument against legalizing drugs. I think we should listen to legitimate institutions who use scientific based studies and not opinions from self serving individuals.
A person’s freedom to do what they want ENDS when that freedom interferes with the rights of others. These people in jail are drug pushers who give free samples to kids as young as they can, to promote addiction to insure their income…that’s why they are there and that interfers with my rights as a parent and my child’s right not to grow up addicted. I believe his arguments are only compelling to those looking for quick easy fixes to complicated problems.
“These people in jail are drug pushers who give free samples to kids as young as they can, to promote addiction to insure their income”
This doesn’t describe many small time pot growers. It DOES describe the tactics of big tobacco and alcohol advertising.
Dag, the convicted go on for years and decades filing appeal after appeal. One appeal is reasonable and should be included in the laws.
I misspoke. I meant to say that I disagree that execution is more expensive than life imprisonment. That article i snot written by an impartial group, and its numbers do not reflect reality. That article is written by a hard-core anti-death penalty activist organization. Attached is an oposing viewpoint.
http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000
However, if I were convinced that life in prison without parole really MEANT life in prison without parole, and if I could be convinced that LIPWP really was less expensive, I’d agree with that option.
@same
And your reference is written by hard core pro capital punishment advocates. But, it still says the same thing. Executions are more expensive. We disagree on why. I say it should be justifiably so to limit their use. Taking someone’s life is not reversible especially considering the 17 on death row just since 2011 who have had their convictions overturned. When you consider the small percentage of those convicted of a capital offense, it makes little sense to kill them to create more space to imprison those who await bail and have never been convicted of anything…simply because they are poor. Their is equally a very large number of totally innocent poor who plead guilty to crimes to avoid procecution of a higher crime…convinced to do so by overworked public defenders. It happens daily.
It still boils down to putting more poor people in jail…because they are poor and not because they have been adjudged guilty of any crime. That is, if you believe in innocent until proven guilty.
Last time I checked we didn’t have debtor’s prisons. Everyone in jail is either awaiting trial or convicted. Nobody is in prison simply because they’re poor.
It’s only those convicted of a premeditated violent homicide or a homicide committed in the act of a crime, and only those whose appeal has been unsuccessful that I believe should be executed. Those who have been convicted of premeditated violent crimes not resulting in death should, however, be removed from society permanently. Our law enforcement, judicial, and penal systems should be functioning to protect the innocent from being preyed upon by those who’ve already proven themselves to be predators. Currently it’s a revolving door system for too many violent predators.
No one in is in jail because they are poor ? Huh? You completely over look that the poor CANNOT MAKE BAIL IN AN OVER CROWDED COURT SYSTEM WAITING MONTHS FOR TRIAL DATES.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122986066
Count them, half a million at any one time. They are the poor who learn crime while in jail.
This back log accounts for a huge number of imprisoned persons who eventually plead guilty just to get a '"get out of jail " card with a date on it.
http://caught.net/innoc.htm
With .5 percent of those unjustly found guilty, still leaves 10000 a year in prison who have stood trial and are innocent, mostly because of lack of proper defense. It doesn’t even count those who have plea bargined to a lesser crime they are equally not guilty of.
Even the innocent suffer a high rate of recidivism because, jail educates criminals in crinmial behavior. We are making criminals not only with lack of opportunity before, but in prison as well. And, your solution is either to keep them in prison longer or kill them. Once unjustly convicted, the record follows you and more crime is in your future.
@same
You solution accounts for less then ten percent of the prison population and for crimes involving homicides, much less then that. Your solution to crime affects less then 3 to 7 percent of the prison population.
Dag, I’m not suggesting executing those awaiting trial. But perhaps if we executed those that meet the criteria I have defined, the jails would be less packed.
Do you have any statistics on innocent people who became criminals while awaiting trial?
No offense meant, but I subscribe to the old saying; “liberals are just conservatives who haven’t been mugged yet”.