I can think of several people who would do good to go through bootcamp just from work.
Maybe take a page from Switzerland and have them serve a year in the military once they graduate high school?
Also, it looks like our(Ohio) governor has signed a bill today that will require a person to take a competency test only once when getting a CCW permit. Right now one has to pass the test everytime you renew the license.
Well bscar2,part of that bill seems alright ,however seems to me competency should be established on each renewal.This is a pretty hefty responsibilty-Kevin
@bscar2
I think millions of people would benefit from going through boot camp . Absolutely splendid idea. Keeping your head about you when awoken at 4 a.m. to the sounds of a screaming TI does wonders to putting things in perspective. Not a cure all by any means as we know from past history, but a start. All able bodied persons should be subject to service, whether it be soldiering or going on a Mormon Mission.
The NRA is a shill for weapons manufacturers. It’s about the money. It was when some of these same argued against everything from easy access to cigarettes to car safety.
Just like cigarettes used taxation to help control it’s use, why don’t we pay for police protection in schools and better weapons registration with a surtax on firearms and ammunition ?
Rod, I agree that too many people become attached to a party based on a single issue, but it isn’t unique to republicans by any means. It muddles the real discussion to paint with a broad brush.
Convicted violent criminals should not be allowed to own weapons. Gun show loopholes should be closed. But, then, IMHO convicted violent criminals should not be allowed free in society anyway.
One piece of the puzzle that’s not being discussed is that kids today are being brought up on a society without norms, mores, or any moral compass at all. The basis of all religions is a moral compass, yet religion of all forms has been thoroughly excised from the public sector. Kids cannot say a prayer in school, cannot acknowledge their religion, cannot even say “Merry Christmas”. Schools cannot display nativity scenes. Town halls are similarly constrained in many areas. Teachers are spending their time teaching sex ed, and required reading includes books such as “Johny loves Bobby”. Gay Pride Day is celebrated, but God cannot be mentioned. It’s no wonder we have kids growing up today without any moral compass, kids confused about right and wrong and unable to recognize the difference between right and wrong, kids unable to figure out how to deal with confusing social issues.
IMHO it is clear that gun controls are needed. It’s also clear that they need to be intelligently thought out. And I also believe that citizens without criminal pasts should in no way be constrained from gun ownership. The current areas with the strictest gun controls are also the areas with the highest crime rates. We need to focus on the reasons people shoot people, not on the guns. The previous paragraph, as well as the lax attitude we have toward keeping criminals out of society, are areas that efforts should be focused on. It may take two or three generations to return moral compasses to the schools and the public sector, but of we continue down the path we’re on the violence will continue.
@thesamemountainbike
Just to give an other point of view which may be similar to what you are saying.
I feel part of developing a moral compass is learning the best way of showing respect and empathy to all. One very important way is to not insist that everyone follow my set of religious beliefs. The Scandinavian countries traditionally have some of the most empathetic, generous and non violent people in the world. The are also one of the most atheistic. I do not believe one’s belief in Christianity or any one particular religion fosters the best behavior.
I do believe that consistency and respect for your fellow human beings does. Religions generally foster those beliefs, buy so doesn’t a set of respected values held by many atheists and agnostics. What we do in a modern society to respect the rights of all can never be wrong IMO. If that includes allowing gay pride day and not asking as all to believe in God or continually reminding people that it is the only way to live a fruitful and respectful life, I’m all for it.
I am a practicing Catholic but do not expect Heaven to be populated only by those who belief as I do nor do I feel that some of the greatest humanitarian contributions of all time were made by mine. As a matter of fact, non believers can be equally humanistic.
What makes good behavior ? It’s as simple as practicing good behavior. That we must insist upon. We we do, empathy follows.
The last 2 schools I taught at were great at this. One was a private Catholic school and one was a public school. In both, the only thing we insisted upon by all was respectful, civil behavior, punctuated by courtesy. At no time in either school was alternate dress or belief ever an issue for developing a good moral compass.
For example, I doubt that the many of the kids who raced over to open the door for a fellow student or teacher in need, went on to have a criminal record. I feel it’s that simple.
Might want to take a look at the current restrictions on gun purchases. Those with felonies can’t buy, those with dishonorable discharges can’t buy, etc. Just not being enforced much plus the gun show sales. Bloomberg was interviewed and showed himself to be a complete idiot and hypocrit on guns. He thought automatic weapons should be banned-Um, AUTOMATIC WEAPONS HAVE BEEN BANNED SINCE 1934. Then he thought it was ridiculous to have armed police protecting kids, but saw no problem with the six or so ARMED body guards following him around. Just a jerk that should stick to trying to fix his own problems.
I do believe that there has been a shift in the general mores of what is considered acceptable behavior and that will be a long term problem. Where it used to be absolutely unacceptable for a mass shooting in public, it has now become acceptable behavior by those on the edge. Blowing up airplanes was unacceptable but now the line has been crossed and is seen as possible. The cause? Probably many including bad videos, movies, family break-down, and a general attitude that anything is acceptable now. It’ll be a long haul. In the meantime we need to protect ourselves, identify these people, and get them into psychiatric institutions once again.
Semi and full Automatics are NOT BANNED by the federal govt.
This is what I talked about many posts ago. Bloomberg was talking about semi automatic weapons of high capacity. Felons still buy guns…anyone can buy guns out of his state even if his is controlled and bring them in for resale on the street. They can buy them legitimately at gun auctions With out background checks where tables of guns are for sale by legit individuals who have no criminal record and have no restrictions on the number of guns they can buy in many states. Any individual can sell or “have stolen” any number of guns as the gun is not registered. The restrictions on doing this vary from state to state but many are very liberal. That keeps many guns available on the private market to ALL in all states.
The difference between semi automatics and full automatics is the federal law which requires both the full automatic firearm and the gun owner must be registered/ licensed. It is a separate application you must make to own, possess or purchase a full automatic. They are not easy to get and can be very expensive to register, let alone buy, each full auto weapon depending on the class of license you get. You can sell it, but it must be sold to another license holder who then must register that gun. If you sell to a non licensed person or loose that full auto, you still are liable and can be an accessory after the fact if that subsequent individual gets caught with it and is not licensed… 10years or $10k fine or both for just the fed. offense of violating these provisions. . Full automatics are NOT BANNED. The are tightly restricted and regulated and require licens. This IS serious gun control which even most NRA members agree with.
I may not have been as complete as I intended, but the point is…Bloomberg is not blowing that much smoke. I believe Bloomberg wants these high capacity semi autos restricted too.
@bing… Mass killings are never acceptable, but the availability of theses weapons make it more possible. And, because guns last for generations and we are still making thousands of them a year, the availability increases, the world gets more dangerous !
My children were brought up with a strong moral compass, and have turned into decent, thoughtful adults. They are between 20 and 24, and I don’t think things have changed in 20 years. It is up to the parents to train their children properly, not public institutions like schools.
Double agree Guys,public schools are not a good moral absolute because of favoritism and toleration of despicable behaviour, in the school in my fair county, seems like the favorites and the football team can get by with most anything.
It starts at home and telling your kid to finish fights isnt the answear either,because some bullys arent the stereotypical scared powderpuffs(course it never hurts to suprise em sometimes either) the best fight is the one never engaged,resolution is better-because a 40 grain bullet will topple a huge mesomorph-Kevin
Schools are the first large social setting for most kids. They Can be extremely valuable for kids to learn social skills. How succesful they are like every thing else, depends how willing the parents are to support and how successful the schools are in following through with the same expectations. When the parents and schools disagree, the child suffers.
Dag, I agree with much of what you say, except that if the schools are going to promote Gay Pride Day the schools should also be allowing prayer, nativity scenes, and displays of other beliefs. The first amendment does not prohibit municipal, state, or even federal institutions from allowing displays and celebrations of religion, rather it simply states that congress shall make no law establishing religion. Many of the citizens of the oriiginal 13 colonies came here to excape religious persecution. Other countries all had (and have) state religions. As people will do, they’d clustered with thers of similar beliefs into colonies. In order for the majority of the colonists to agree to sign the Declaration it was necessary to aree to protect their rights to practice different religions freely. Thus, that right became the first amendment in the Bill of Rights, the original document restricting the powers of Congress. The Tenth Amendment reinforces that by stating that all rights not granted to the U.S. government remains solely within the powers of the individual states. State legislators populated by “progressive” members have seen to morph that into banniing religious practices that are inconsistant with whatever is politically correct. State supreme courts, similarly populated, have consistantly “found” expressions by state and municiple agencies of faith to be inconsistant with their interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.
If we continue along the path of no guidance, the violence will continue. Somehow, we need to get back to kids learning in school the importance of respect in a civilized society.
As regards the gun control issue, there is zero evidence that gun control regulations reduce crime. The cities with the toughest laws have the highest crime rates. And the gunshow loophole makes regulations rediculous. It only takes business away from the honest gun stores. Criminals, felons, and people with histories of psychotic behavior, and those wishing to buy in volume, don’t buy their guns at gun stores. They buy them at shows, privately, or through the black market. Only honest citizens get subjected to the controls, and they aren’t the ones that need control. What gun laws often do is make criminals out of the honest citizens. Brandish a gun to chase someone off of your property who refuses to leave and you just might wind up in jail and with a criminal record.
AUTOMATIC WEAPONS HAVE BEEN BANNED SINCE 1934
I live within 2 miles of an outdoor shooting range.
I hear automatic weapons every week. Many states like NY have banned automatic weapons…but states like NH…they are NOT banned.
Dag, I agree with much of what you say, except that if the schools are going to promote Gay Pride Day the schools should also be allowing prayer, nativity scenes, and displays of other beliefs.
My kids all went to public schools up to high-school in NH. They had no problem praying in any of the schools they went to. What was banned was ORGANIZED religion. Which I agree with. My kids went to public school with kids of many different faiths. Most were some sort of Christian sect…and of the Christians most were Catholic (which I am). But there were Muslims, Buddhists, Jewish, Hindu…and even some atheists. I have a MAJOR problem with the school actively organizing any religious activity. It’s basically telling the other kids who don’t believe as you do that the school doesn’t support your beliefs. But the school NEVER EVER stopped the kids from practicing their own religion as they believed (as long as it didn’t interfere with school or disrupt other children).
2 of my kids went to private Catholic schools and one went to a private secular. I had no problems with the two kids who went to the Catholic schools to be taught religion.
I don’t have a problem with the Gay Pride Day. It’s NOT religious. And my youngest son had one kid in his class who has two moms. Nice young man. I can understand your point about not necessarily promoting it. But recognizing it as an lifestyle that some kids actually live in…I don’t have a problem with. My daughter was in public school when 911 happened. They had a lot of discussion in her history classes on what a Muslim was. At the time there were several kids in the school who were Muslim. It was very disturbing what some kids were taught at home. Most didn’t know that the Muslim religion actually believed in the Old Testament. And that MOST actually don’t believe in the violence we see. Most people who have these prejudices are based on ignorance.
As in so many things in life, it is possible to buy the wherewithal to make a spectacular show to out do those who have achieved great skill. Why let those who have worked years and mastered firing a 10 inch pattern at 500 meters be the center of attention when for a weeks pay anyone can buy an AK-47 with a 100 round magazine and shoot into a row of bottles 50 feet away, filled with gasoline to make a grand display. And that AK-47 might only increase the monthly minimum due on the credit card $20 so why wait?
It doesn’t take much to make a semi auto seem like a fully auto; just have a quick trigger finger. A shooting range near me has a few full automatics you can rent, but they charge per magazine, not a single rental fee plus ammo like the other guns there.
Yep, one of my younger brothers could make a 10/22 Ruger sound like an auto,he could fire it so quickly-Kevin
@samemountainbike…
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"There is zero evidence that gun control regulations reduce crime "
Same, it is difficult to prove a negative. The instances of crime may be hard to justify by the weapons used for these crimes. But, The severity of confrontation between the innocent or law inforcement vs the criminl, is directly related to the weapons used by criminals. At the risk of repeating myself over and over again, the single biggest contributor to antisocial behavior is opportunity. If more and more guns are available, opportunity increases. Only federally enforced regulation of guns has shown to most effective as demonstrated by the reglation of full automatic weapons.
The regulation that works, is the registration of the weapon plus the owner and not allowing manufacturers to produce them for public sale after 1986. There are very few crimes associated with automatic weapons, thankfully. This regulation works ! The streets would be absolute war zones if private citizens and criminals had as easy access to full autos as they do semiautomatics.
As heinous as the semi auto is, and as much carnage as it is capable, ww1 and the crime ridden streets of the twenties shortly after relvealed this weapon capability to such an awesome degree, the full auto was federally regulated. The NRA does not talk about this most successful program as a model for other weapons because it has been so successful.
There are lots of full autos out there, don’t get me wrong. But, but the liability for being in possession of one, not only by a criminal but even a private citizen is so great, the use of them In crime is reduced to a very small number, thank God. I have shot a full auto while in the military. Anyone else who has knows the killing power is beyound omprehension compared to the ordinary sporting rifle.
The evolution of the semi auto with assault weapon styled guns with large clips, pistol grips, small slugs propelled at high velocity have all made the difference between the full auto and semi auto a little less obvious. There in is the problem…higher rates of fire, large capacity and ease of use and aqusition by ANYONE.
The NRA knows that the registration of guns and their owners would change the gun ownership availability more then any other single factor. It works for one simple reason. Manufacturers are liable for every full auto they make and every legitimate full auto owner is liable for the use of his gun by himself and any non registered user of “his” registered weapon. They AREN’'T for sale to the average person let lone the average criminal.
Depending on the firearm, a full auto bust might never hit what you’re aiming at.
I’ve rented 2 different full auto rifles and the FNh P90 was easier to control because of the lower recoil, but still all over the paper at 25~30 feet. The Thompson M1A1 was an entirely different animal. Full auto, that thing would climb like crazy on me. I could only go in 5 or 6 round bursts before it had gone from bottom to top. I forget which gun it was, but someone was telling me that one of the newer rifles could shoot all 20~30 rounds before the first ejected bullet hit the ground.
Also, anyone got a spare 50 grand on them? 
http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/thompson?set=08&sz=800x600
@bscar
The AR15 and similar caliber and design rifles are much easier to control in both semi and full auto. That is what makes it more dangerous. The kick of the 55 grain bullet, even traveling at 3200 ft per second, is negligible. They are much more accurate in rapid fire condition then most hunting weapons. They provide opportunity for mass killing to those who were never intended, the poorly trained civilian, the mentally unstable and the criminal. They are proliferating the market with ball miIitary ammo available by the case load at bargin price with no restriction. That’s why they are dangerous. They provide opportunity to kill many people more efficiently. This is not the intended goal of the hunting or self defense weapon. By your own admission, the small but high velocity of the p90 was more controllable by these same at risk group. This is true in semi as well as full auto mode. Register both !
The M16 was designed to be smaller and lighter with lighter ammunition to reduce the weight that troops carried while enabling them to carry more ammunition. The greater range and knock down power of the 7.62 cal M14 was considered unnecessary while the improved handling in confined spaces seemed a great asset to the Pentagon. The brass made a great effort to sell the weapon to the grunts on the ground who had trained with M14 and I was one of them. Most of us recognized that the Chi-Com SKS was much more reliable in the real world of mud and dirt than the Mattel 16. Myself and several others carried M1 carbines while they were available. The M16 fell short of the sales pitch as far as I’m concerned. A speck of dirt or a tablespoon of water will make it a single shot. And any impact on the stock will totally trash it.