# GM's Electric Vehicles **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [October 9, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874 "2021-10-09T13:32:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nevada\_545](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/nevada_545/32/41232_2.png) [@Nevada\_545](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Nevada_545)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 7:46pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/42 "2021-10-11T19:46:23Z")
If water flow proves to be insufficient he can start a bucket line. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/original/3X/8/5/854440e7b5b0e868bf5ea9c9b8e34b4c098c3ef2.png) ---
**Author:** ![texases](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/texases/32/862_2.png) [@texases](https://community.cartalk.com/u/texases)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/43 "2021-10-11T19:52:36Z")
As noted in @weekend-warrior 's link, water could make a lithium battery fire worse. Kind of like the school experiment with sodium and water. Hydrogen is generated, which quickly catches fire. ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/44 "2021-10-11T20:06:23Z")
I don’t think you’re a troll, snowman that I cannot see, and I don’t mind thinking outside the box. But, yeah…I wouldn’t want a free sprinkler system if it was offered with the purchase of a possibly self igniting new car. I don’t think anyone would. Too many variables. I might melt the Christmas tree stored in the attic, possible water damage to the garage, etc. Now as far as which is cheaper, the recall or the sprinklers, I suppose that is debatable. Although it’s a moot point as no one is going to buy a car that needs a sprinkler system installed in your garage to go along with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/45 "2021-10-11T20:31:51Z")
> [@InvisibleSnowman](#): > > It’s all the plastics that burn in a car. The battery pack gets hot and ignites them No it is not. The it is the battery internals that catch fire, feed oxygen to the fire, generate the heat that melts the METAL case surrounding the battery, the plastics in the car and then the METAL the car is made from. You seem to be highly resistant to factual explanations of the problems of lithium ion battery fires. Written by and for the professional firefighters who deal with the fires. > **[Tesla on fire: How to extinguish an electric car fire](https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/tesla-on-fire-how-to-extinguish-an-electric-car-fire-n8dDvmqLHqggmoXr/)** > > Recent crashes like the one in Indy show how dangerous and different these vehicle fires are, and why training is necessary And as several posters have repeatedly told you… > [@InvisibleSnowman](#): > > There is still no need to bash my fire sprinkler idea. Yes, there is a need. The idea is ridiculous. You cannot install a 4 inch water line into a private home to douse a garage fire with 30,000 gallons of water to put out an EV fire. Municipalities will not allow that. ---
**Author:** ![Barkydog](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/barkydog/32/2470_2.png) [@Barkydog](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Barkydog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/46 "2021-10-11T20:43:49Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > 30,000 gallons of water to put out an EV fire. Municipalities will not allow that. I know our municipality would not care, I think 3/4 inch supply size for a sprinkler head is normal, so you could run a 12" main to it, but there would be no gain. And yes cleanup after sprinkler activation would be a consideration @Scrapyard-John ---
**Author:** ![Renegade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Renegade](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Renegade)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/47 "2021-10-11T20:55:08Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > You seem to be highly resistant to factual explanations of the problems of lithium ion battery fires. Written by and for the professional firefighters who deal with the fires He is highly resistant to any facts but his own. ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/48 "2021-10-11T20:55:33Z")
Maybe the Bolt can come with a free sprinkler system and a free subscription to ServPro’s services 😝 ---
**Author:** ![Triedaq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Triedaq](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Triedaq)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/49 "2021-10-11T22:05:40Z")
With any device where electrical energy is involved, if the energy isn’t handled properly, there is a potential of a fire. My son’s inlaws had their Lincoln Town Car parked outside their attached garage. An electrical fire started in the cruise control wiring. Late at night, s fire started I the wiring of the car. The fire leaped from the car to the eaves of the house. The car was destroyed and considerable damage was done to the house. The fire was caused by a defect in the cruise control circuitry. The potential for an electrical fire is there even with a small battery. I was changing smoke detector batteries at my church. I put a 9 volt battery that I had removed from a smoke detector in my pocket. A few minutes later, I felt something very hot against my leg. The terminals of the battery were short circuited by either a coin or the pocket knife in my pocket. There was a recall of Black and Decker battery powered mowers because of the possibility of fire while recharging the battery. Although the Black and Decker mower I owned at the time, I was still concerned about recharging the mower in my attached garage. Now I don’t know if the potential for an electrical fire with an EV is greater or less than a fuel fire in a vehicle with an internal combustion engine. I have had to extinguish a couple of carburetor fires in past years. I have both electric and natural gas appliances in my house. Our range and clothes dryer are electric; our water heater and furnace are gas. From years back, I am not sure the percentage of fires caused by Servel gas refrigerators was greater or less than fires started by overheated compressor motors in electric refrigerators. Now I don’t want to go back to a reel type motorless lawnmower or a horse and buggy for transportation, or an icebox to preserve my food. My question is whether or not EV are more or less prone to fires than ICE vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![TheWonderful90s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/thewonderful90s/32/29584_2.png) [@TheWonderful90s](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TheWonderful90s)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/50 "2021-10-11T23:06:20Z")
> [@Scrapyard-John](#): > > Maybe the Bolt can come with a free sprinkler system and a free subscription to ServPro’s services 😝 Exactly but when I suggested it I got jumped all over with a lot of personal attacks. I hope the problem will be fixed with new Bolts. I was suggesting this as an offer to existing owners. What’s troubling with these lithium ion battery pack fires is that there seems to be no second level of protection or isolation. The only solution is to prevent a defective cell from melting down. Once that happens it seems like there is no way to stop it from spreading to the rest of the cells in the pack. Maybe it’s the electricity from the other parallel cells that causes the failed one to become extremely hot. Apparently If there are 800 cells in there only one defective one can ruin everything. I wish they would just let users replace the packs with lead acid batteries, even if it reduces the range to 1/3. ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/30_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:13pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/51 "2021-10-11T23:13:17Z")
Really? Rather than holding GM responsible for defects in the design and construction of their flawed vehicles, you think that their customers should simply retrofit their homes with a very costly sprinkler system? I think that a more cost-effective approach would be to park those vehicles **outside** –far away from the house–and then to “join” a Class Action Suit against GM in regard to these known defects. ---
**Author:** ![Renegade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Renegade](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Renegade)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:16pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/52 "2021-10-11T23:16:56Z")
> [@InvisibleSnowman](#): > > Exactly > [@Scrapyard-John](#): > > Maybe the Bolt can come with a free sprinkler system and a free subscription to ServPro’s services 😝 He just don’t seem to get it does he. 🙄 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/53 "2021-10-11T23:19:43Z")
> [@InvisibleSnowman](#): > > even if it reduces the range to 1/3. More like 1/8 th mileage plus 5 times the weight. ---
**Author:** ![TheWonderful90s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/thewonderful90s/32/29584_2.png) [@TheWonderful90s](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TheWonderful90s)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/54 "2021-10-11T23:26:00Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > More like 1/8 th mileage plus 5 times the weight. Am I feeding a bad situation if I respond? Maybe you think people know that you’re joking or exaggerating but I don’t think everyone does. It can’t be both 5 times the weight and 1/8 the range. Can you at least cite an actual source about energy density and battery chemistry? ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/55 "2021-10-11T23:50:21Z")
I am not joking nor exaggerating. Li-ion has much higher volumetric energy density and lower weight for that volume. You should know by now that I can cite an actual source. [https://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html](https://www.epectec.com/batteries/cell-comparison.html) Maybe a bit simpler to understand. > **[Volumetric and Gravimetric energy density comparison of various battery...](http://electrodesandmore.blogspot.com/2013/04/volumetric-and-gravimetric-energy.html)** > > electrodes and more lithium ion battery related blogs ---
**Author:** ![Scrapyard-John](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Scrapyard-John](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Scrapyard-John)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2021, 11:51pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/56 "2021-10-11T23:51:31Z")
I don’t know for certain that he is joking. Lead is pretty heavy. Would have to research range and weight of lead acid batteries vs lithium ion batteries to really know the particulars. But, I imagine there’s a reason lead acid batteries were never used (that I’m aware of) in power tools and there’s a reason no one is pursuing (again that I’m aware of) lead batteries in the EV game. I imagine if it were a viable alternative someone would be doing it. ---
**Author:** ![texases](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/texases/32/862_2.png) [@texases](https://community.cartalk.com/u/texases)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/57 "2021-10-12T00:00:26Z")
> [@InvisibleSnowman](#): > > I wish they would just let users replace the packs with lead acid batteries, even if it reduces the range to 1/3. Back to 1905! ---
**Author:** ![Triedaq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Triedaq](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Triedaq)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/58 "2021-10-12T00:00:35Z")
@Scrapyard-John I did have a string trimmer powered by a sealed lead acid battery. I had to replace the battery three times in the ten years I used it. When it was ready for another battery, I bought a string trimmer with a lithium ion battery for less than the cost of a replacement lead acid battery for my first battery powered string trimmer. The new string trimmer is much lighter and easier to use. As I have said earlier, I had a Black and Decker CMM 1000 battery powered mower. It ran on two lead acid batteries. It was heavier than the gasoline powered push mower I own. I know the new battery mowers with the lithium ion batteries are much lighter and more versatile. ---
**Author:** ![TheWonderful90s](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/thewonderful90s/32/29584_2.png) [@TheWonderful90s](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TheWonderful90s)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:01am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/59 "2021-10-12T00:01:49Z")
Looking at the middle of the energy density bubbles from that source, it’s 37.5W/kg for lead acid and 125W/kg for lithium ion so it’s is 3.3 times as heavy for the same energy. There is a wide range of lithium ion technologies - I came across a source claiming up to 250W/kg, but I think 100 to 200W/kg is more realistic for EVs. Lead acid further loses capacity in short term high load situations whereas nickel based or lithium based batteries do not. They used lead acid and NiMH EVs in the past. The previous generation Prius (up to 2012) was NiMH. Many hobby EVs are lead acid. Lead acid was commonly used in small power tools in the 80s. Had a rechargable electric screwdriver, plug in flashlight, and VHS camcorder with lead acid packs. Nickel cadmium was the other choice. Things moved to NiMH in the 90s and then lithium started replacing everything in the 2000s. ---
**Author:** ![weekend-warrior](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/weekend-warrior/32/26122_2.png) [@weekend-warrior](https://community.cartalk.com/u/weekend-warrior)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:12am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/60 "2021-10-12T00:12:39Z")
> [@InvisibleSnowman](#): > > lithium started replacing everything in the 2000s. Hmmm, I wonder why. ---
**Author:** ![weekend-warrior](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/weekend-warrior/32/26122_2.png) [@weekend-warrior](https://community.cartalk.com/u/weekend-warrior)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2021, 12:39am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874/61 "2021-10-12T00:39:07Z")
[Lithium-ion Battery Charging & Advantages – PowerTech Systems](https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-battery-advantages/) [Lead Acid Battery vs Lithium | Lithium Iron Phosphate (powertechsystems.eu)](https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/lithium-ion-vs-lead-acid-battery/) [Previous page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874.md?page=2) [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/gms-electric-vehicles/179874.md?page=4)